More on the New Apostolic Reformation

[Roger Stanyard]

Here's a report from Right Wing Watch on NAR - http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/e ... omote-call

It appears that NAR is near racist, somewhat ironic given that it is reported to be a product of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement which originate amongst American black people.

But then, I've long suspected that underlying the fundamentalist movement is racism in the deep South of the USA. As the late Ann Gilbert of Debunk Creation pointed out to me, a lot of fundamentalists still literally accept the story of the Biblical Ham in Genesis.

[Roger Stanyard]

Here's a report from Right Wing Watch on NAR - http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/e ... omote-call

It appears that NAR is near racist, somewhat ironic given that it is reported to be a product of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement which originate amongst American black people.

But then, I've long suspected that underlying the fundamentalist movement is racism in the deep South of the USA. As the late Ann Gilbert of Debunk Creation pointed out to me, a lot of fundamentalists still literally accept the story of the Biblical Ham in Genesis.

More on the New Apostolic Reformation here at Slate: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... formation/

It looks as if creationism is becoming an issue (again) in the US Presidential elections. Al Jazeera has described NAR as the American Taliban. It's a very accurate conclusion.

[cathy]

I think things like that are an issue because the very essence of creationism is to rob most ordinary folk of the ability to think by replacing education with indoctrination. If you actively encourage people to blind faith and unthinking stupidity (and lets face it that is what creaitonists do) and a narrow little social set (how many creationist Christians start narrowing their social circles because they've alienated so many folk by talking nonsense) how much control do you put in the hands of pastors and their right wing pals?

I see the appeal of creation 'science' to inadequate, control freaks. Ham, Behe, Garner, Bell and the rest would be/are relative nonentities in the real world. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that, but they are puffed up with a sense of their own importance and think they deserve more. They aren't capable of a lot (or lets face it, they wouldn't buy any creation 'science') and at best would be very tiny fish in a very big pond with some very impressive fish.

In the creationist world however, they don't preach to their peers they preach to the vulnerable. By frightening them away from science, knowledge and reality and by lying to and frightening them, they make them even more vulnerable and reliant on those pastors as power brokers. And they got very rich on the proceeds of their con.

So what you've written is terrifying but not surprising I'm afraid. Keeping folk in ignorance is the best form of social control I can think of. Ham, Behe and co are very big fish in a tiny little pond full of frightened minnows. So they can mould them to whatever right wing sort of monster you like-and if that just so happens to be racist in the future so be it (tho currently the main creationists aren't especially racist-nor are the big creationists here as far as I can see). Racism work best with ignorance after all-creationism generates ignornace. Even better if you can get into govt, increase the indoctrination etc.

And they are trying very hard to import creationism and ignorance over here!

Reading Marcs pastors blog you get a real sense of someone who thinks he's a cool dude. keeping it real in the inner city-better than your average church leader cos he's a planter (haven't a clue what that is-some kind of super pastor I guess from context) who tells it like it is. Except he doesn't, he's a clueless creationist looking for blind faith. I think arrogant pillock best sums up my personal opinion. Wouldn't fool many people but would fool some. I can't find a good word to say about what I've read so far.

It is only a matter of time before someone encouraged, by folk like him, to read the creation 'science' drivel, absorbs enough of the stupid hate filled bile spewed out onto compromising Christians and so called paradigm locked, atheistic worldview scientists and decides to take a lethal stand. Perhaps take their lead from the genocide flood that creationists are so obsessed with and kill a few folk.

Anyway thats todays rant. America didn't deal with creationist loons. Didn't marginalise them anywhere near enough and now look what its got. Terrifying American Taliban.

Creationism is clearly terrifying.

[cathy]

Hmm and like racists they seem to work by operating on, but distorting, genuine concerns. I'm surprised at just how right wing fundamentalist Christians are. You'd have thought reading the bible literall would make them the opposite.

[Roger Stanyard]

I think things like that are an issue because the very essence of creationism is to rob most ordinary folk of the ability to think by replacing education with indoctrination. If you actively encourage people to blind faith and unthinking stupidity (and lets face it that is what creaitonists do) and a narrow little social set (how many creationist Christians start narrowing their social circles because they've alienated so many folk by talking nonsense) how much control do you put in the hands of pastors and their right wing pals?

What amazes me about the creationist/fundamentalist movement is its staggering sleaze, and the sleaze of those that associate with it such as Republican politicians and wingnut hacks/hackettes. NAR, though, takes the biscuit.

[cathy]

What amazes me about the creationist/fundamentalist movement is its staggering sleaze, and the sleaze of those that associate with it such as Republican politicians and wingnut hacks/hackettes. NAR, though, takes the biscuit.

Yep. Not surprised. Make sure you keep people in ignorance,=get power=do whatever you like. Cos if you got God on your side how could you be wrong.

[Roger Stanyard]

What amazes me about the creationist/fundamentalist movement is its staggering sleaze, and the sleaze of those that associate with it such as Republican politicians and wingnut hacks/hackettes. NAR, though, takes the biscuit.

Yep. Not surprised. Make sure you keep people in ignorance,=get power=do whatever you like. Cos if you got God on your side how could you be wrong.

Some of the pentecostal churches preach the "prosperity gospel" to the effect that if you hand your money over to it, you'll somehow get rich, and the more you hand over, the richer you'll get. The only people who seem to get rich out of this scam are the pastors and their families and pals. One of the more notorious is Hillsong in Australia; it also has a big branch in London. There are plenty of others in the USA.

[a_haworthroberts]

This looks pretty nutty: http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display ... l?ID=10204
'Right Wing Watch' - http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/p ... government - thought it was a reference to Hurricane Irene - which of course missed Washington (Irene hadn't even formed by 30 July but I think there was at least one tropical storm formed by then) - though the description sounds a bit like a tornado given that tornadoes descend (the prophecy was not of an earthquake, which DID happen in the capital, certainly).

[cathy]

It looks as if creationism is becoming an issue (again) in the US Presidential elections. Al Jazeera has described NAR as the American Taliban. It's a very accurate conclusion.

Well don't hold your breath but if last nights Newsnight is anything to go by our lovely Tory govt are exporting a nice old bit of the religious right and social conservatism over here.

It appears that one of the biggest groups offering nutty Nadines new idea to offer 'independent' impartial counselling to women seeking a termination (and by offering it would appear they mean offering 'independent' counselling before the woman can actually have a termination-clever given the rather time sensitive nature of the issue) has a training manual which states things like, aborion is a grevious sin against God, the bible states life begins at conception (how many conceptions spontaneously abort naturally before implantation-think its more than 50%), abortion grieves Gods' heart etc etc you get the picture. Well I'm sure after training like that I'd be more than qualified to offer impartial advice.

Anyone heard of Stuart Jackson? He was on supporting the legislation (which won't have to be voted on). He seemed stupid. He claimed the current (actually genuine impartial counselling/advice) given by BPAS and Marie Stopes was not impartial cos fiscally motivated, and likened it to regulating the pensions industry-yeah right. So I guess cardiologists can no longer give be trusted to give impartial advice about heart disease, or oncologists about cancer cos they're financially motivated. So lard and fags it is then.

It took the labour MP Qureshi (female and Jackson kept trying to talk over her) to point out this was a religiously motivated attempt to impose a particular religious/socially conservative set of morals and reduce the number of abortions, and if that number had risen it was not the fault of existing providers but a failure in prevention and education. She was also sane enough to point out the dangers of delaying the procedure for bonkers schemes both mentally and physically.

What worried me was how such an obviously religiously motivated notion, which is clearly ridiculous, is even being discussed as rational. To claim the current system is fiscally motivated was abhorrent and the guy could produce no evidence that existing clinics were persauding women one way or the other.

It is off topic but the tactics were so similar to the craftier of the creationists-lie, mislead and say things without evidence, and mainly his appeal to fairness and 'impartiality'. And whatever peoples personal beliefs what was worrying was what does such an obviously religiously fundie attitude in parliament say about their more general take and would they be more easily swayed to creationist free schools just cos they share their extremist religious nuttiness. Scary.

[cathy]

As the late Ann Gilbert of Debunk Creation pointed out to me, a lot of fundamentalists still literally accept the story of the Biblical Ham in Genesis.

Sorry don't get this bit. Who is the Biblical Ham and what is his link with racism. One of Noahs sons is called Ham?

[Dagsannr]

As the late Ann Gilbert of Debunk Creation pointed out to me, a lot of fundamentalists still literally accept the story of the Biblical Ham in Genesis.

Sorry don't get this bit. Who is the Biblical Ham and what is his link with racism. One of Noahs sons is called Ham?

After the flood, Noah made some wine and got drunk. As he was lying there all nekkid, Ham saw him and went to tell his brothers the funny news. The other two didn't seem to find it as funny (or if they did, they didn't admit it) and walked in backwards, so not to see their dad's bare butt and covered him up. When Noah woke up and realised (how?) that Ham didn't cover for his dad's drunkeness, Noah cursed him and said his brothers would rule over him.

Some ignorant types think that this 'Curse of Ham' is a reference to black skin and that this justifies slavery and racism.

Here's the full bit:

20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard.
21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,
25 he said,"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."
26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
27 May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave."

Some Biblical scholars believe this anecdote was added to the scriptures as a rationalisation justifying the Israelite conquest and enslavement of the Canaanites later in the Old Testament.

[cathy]

Ah so literally, Noah though in a drunken stupor knows Ham has seen him naked? Even though he doesn't even wake up when Noah's goody brothers cover him up. How?

They were his sons weren't they-boys? Bit embarrassing for Noah, but it was hardly as if they were seeing anything they hadn't seen before was it?

Noah, God's righteous and good chosen one, was p@@@@d? So out of it he couldn't put his PJs before he passed out?

Noah cursed his youngest son cos he, Noah, was drunk, naked and possibly a bit hungover?

His youngest son was black and the rest of the family weren't? Didn't Noah think to bring that up with Mrs Noah?

Ah well that justifies hundreds of years of slavery, torture and racism doesn't it? We're all a bit tetchy the morning after the night before aren't we.

Well if in the interests of balance we have to shove creation 'science' into science cos some believe it true and must have their interests represented fairly despite the fact it s a pile of silly poo, then I can't see how we could justify keeping this out of things like history and phse despite the fact its a pile of offensive poo. Balance the utter ugliness of the slave trade in history and the fight for rights in citizenship with the whole thing being justified cos Ham saw his dad's willy (cos it's all true you know, Marc keeps saying he has evidence-its just its a secret).