The elephant in the room.

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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am

Michael wrote:It seemed to be long-standing but mostly old earth and no evolution

A different voiceswas Nidhal Guessom whose book Islam's Qauntum Question is a useful book
The "Science and Religion in Islam Project", with which he was involved, seems to have vanished from the net. A bad sign?
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Dr_GS_Hurd » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:32 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:
Michael wrote:It seemed to be long-standing but mostly old earth and no evolution

A different voiceswas Nidhal Guessom whose book Islam's Qauntum Question is a useful book
The "Science and Religion in Islam Project", with which he was involved, seems to have vanished from the net. A bad sign?


I don't know.

Further comments are on;

Razib Khan: Evolution is haram!
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/ ... ent-103223
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:15 am

It seems some houses have elephants in most rooms:
By 8.30, 26 children – some of them only just old enough for school, some almost grown – are sitting in tight rows on the floor of a little inner room, reciting morning prayers in Arabic and in English. By 9.30, the conservatory has become an infant classroom, the dining room has been taken over by the juniors and in the living room, year 7 and 8 girls are preparing to spread their geography projects across the laminate flooring.
<snip>
"The Department for Education wanted everything done six months in advance; they wanted a plan of the building, they wanted to come and inspect," she says. "They wanted to see our curriculum plans in detail – a lot of rigmarole. And we wanted to be open in September. So legally we are a private tuition service – like a supplementary school, but during the day."
<snip>
Manara is experimenting with Montessori teaching methods, and religious education includes moral and personal discussions as well as study of the Qur'an.
What are the chances of keeping creationism out of this system? Registered or not? Or even of getting modern multiculural RE in, never mind evolution.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... ols-growth
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Dagsannr » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:47 am

Brian Jordan wrote:What are the chances of keeping creationism out of this system? Registered or not? Or even of getting modern multiculural RE in, never mind evolution.


Yeah, good luck to those kids getting a real job. Not giving your kids a balanced and modern education is tantamount to child abuse.
There are 2 types of people in the world:

Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:44 pm

Over on the Dawkins forum http://tinyurl.com/c76c2x9, The Rationalizer has posted a link http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRationalizer to a video recording of the Yarun HaHa circus's visit to Wolverhampton University in March. The link is just to his YouTube channel - the video in question is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdCSrYliiA
Beware - it's two hours long! I haven't watched it yet, so can't say whether it will lead you to death by boredom or a blood pressure explosion. :twisted:
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby cathy » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:06 pm

What are the chances of keeping creationism out of this system? Registered or not? Or even of getting modern multiculural RE in, never mind evolution.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... ols-growth

None whatsoever. And then there are still the Christians creationists attempting to get in. And the minute a creationist islamic free school creeps in under the radar the Christian creationists will be on it like a ton of bricks screaming discrimination etc and demanding equal rights to mangle kids critical faculties as well..

Gove opened a real can of utterly thick worms when he came up with his free schools policy. The creationist problem seems to have been rife in Swedish free schools, yet moronic Gove ploughed on regardless when anyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together could see it was a fundamentalists charter (or an excuse for anyone to grab cash) and a complete waste of money. If Islam isn't creationist it will be if their creationists are as vocal and nasty as the Christian ones.

Believe me if you could see how utterly stupid and wasteful of your money some of his education policies are, including free schools, you'd weep. £8 million just thrown away on lawyers and changing stationery for schools converting to academies so far. Yet really good schools can barely afford exercise books let alone text books. Starve existing schools of cash yet throw money at anyone and their cat who fancies opening a school to peddle whatever daft idea they've come up with.

The wedge strategy may actually work because of Goves stupidity and nobody, not even the creationists, saw that coming. The man is the biggest moron I've ever come across. So tomorrow I shall be showing him what I think by not going to work in but in a very militant fashion. Will be marching round tescos looking fierce.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Robert Byers » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:26 am

AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.
A elephant with a atomic bomb wrapped around it maybe.

First biology has nothing to do with evolution. its just invoked . One can have all the biological knowledge in the world without any evolutionary concepts.
Evolution class should be a elective.

Its the right of people to be offended by and oppose ideas that attack thier religion.
in fact if equal time was given respectfully there would be no dust ups.
These muslims have a identity and want it respected. Christian identity is not respected in schools but because they are just Englishmen it doesn't matter.
The modern power of these ethnic peoples gives them greater credibility in their criticisms of the historic attacks on religion by evolutionary ideas.
Reaped what they sowed.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby psiloiordinary » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:06 am

Very nasty stuff Robert. This is your one warning - anymore stuff like this and you will be banned.

I thought about just deleting this but it is a great example of the truly awful side of creationist thought.

Racism is not acceptable on this forum or anywhere else and you are right on the edge!
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby jon_12091 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:12 am

Robert Byers wrote:Its the right of people to be offended by and oppose ideas that attack thier religion.
in fact if equal time was given respectfully there would be no dust ups.
These muslims have a identity and want it respected. Christian identity is not respected in schools but because they are just Englishmen it doesn't matter.
The modern power of these ethnic peoples gives them greater credibility in their criticisms of the historic attacks on religion by evolutionary ideas.
Reaped what they sowed.

Our upper house in parliament has 26 seats reserved for clergy - does yours? There is respect for religion, but then there is the attempt to demand respect for an, admittedly religiously-infused, cultural-political movement, which represents only a fraction of the total adherents and is a relatively recent addition.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Dagsannr » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:56 am

Robert Byers wrote:AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.


Ah, Americans, everything has to be right or left. Evolution isn't a 'left wing agenda' - it's science. That you can't tell the difference is testament to your ignorance. And, if you are indeed American, remember that your entire country (as is most of the UK) is founded on allowing 'great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations'. :roll:

First biology has nothing to do with evolution. its just invoked . One can have all the biological knowledge in the world without any evolutionary concepts.
Evolution class should be a elective.


But you wouldn't understand any of it. That's like teaching people how to create electronics by using pre-printed circuit boards, or teaching builders how to build only using prefabricated modules. Yes it's possible, but you'll never be able to stray from the specifics that you're taught. Evolution is the cement that enables all of biology to make sense. It encourages the asking 'why' - of course that's not something fundamentalists want, because it encourages dissent from the priesthood.

Its the right of people to be offended by and oppose ideas that attack thier religion.

Correct. I agree. But don't expect to be taken seriously.

in fact if equal time was given respectfully there would be no dust ups.


With all due respect, no. Fairness and balance is not about giving everyone with a say equal time. Sometimes it's perfectly alright to go to someone 'shut up, you're being stupid'. Oh, btw - Shut up, you're being stupid.

These muslims have a identity and want it respected. Christian identity is not respected in schools but because they are just Englishmen it doesn't matter.


You're confusing respect and identity with 'everyone should agree with us'. Muslims and christians can believe what they want. The moment they insist that non-believers should follow their rules as a sign of 'respect' is the moment I tell them to f-off and go to hell.

The modern power of these ethnic peoples gives them greater credibility in their criticisms of the historic attacks on religion by evolutionary ideas.


Er. No. They're just as deluded over Allah creating the world as you are over Jehovah doing the same thing.

Plus, a slight side note - Islam isn't a race, it's a religion. A distinction that rabid fundamentalist xians often overlook. I'm a little bemused when people accuse others of racism over comments regarding muslims. It should be open season to ridicule and belittle religion, it's just a set of opinions afterall. We're quite happy to make fun of flat-earthers, or UFO crackpots; religions are just as vunerable. Quite why when someones opinion strays into afterlife, gods and prayer it becomes sacroscant is beyond me.

Arabs are a race, Afgans are a race, Iranians are a race - it's not on to mock someone's origins in that regard. But islam? Nope. You want to believe that, feel free, but I'll ridicule your opinions as much as I would someone who claimed that Marilyn Monroe spoke through their piano at them. Your religion is your own, you chose it and you believe it - I don't, so don't expect me to take it seriously.
There are 2 types of people in the world:

Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:13 am

Robert Byers wrote:AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.
A elephant with a atomic bomb wrapped around it maybe.

First biology has nothing to do with evolution. its just invoked . One can have all the biological knowledge in the world without any evolutionary concepts.
Evolution class should be a elective.

Its the right of people to be offended by and oppose ideas that attack thier religion.
in fact if equal time was given respectfully there would be no dust ups.
These muslims have a identity and want it respected. Christian identity is not respected in schools but because they are just Englishmen it doesn't matter.
The modern power of these ethnic peoples gives them greater credibility in their criticisms of the historic attacks on religion by evolutionary ideas.
Reaped what they sowed.


Idiot. Religious Education and religious services are compulsory in state schools in the UK.

The political left in the UK is as religious as the political right. The "socialist" Labour Party owes more to Methodism than Marx.

Most "Muslims" in the UK are probably apostate.

26 bishops sit, as of right and without election, in the upper house (House of Lords).

A third of state financed primary schools in England and Wales are owned by churches. The percentage is increasing.

A goodly number of people in the UK have never been English. Ever heard of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland?

Your bigotry, paranoia and ignorance are staggering.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:22 am

Natman wrote:
Robert Byers wrote:AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.


Ah, Americans, everything has to be right or left. Evolution isn't a 'left wing agenda' - it's science. That you can't tell the difference is testament to your ignorance. And, if you are indeed American, remember that your entire country (as is most of the UK) is founded on allowing 'great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations'. :roll:



Byers isn't American; he's Canadian. He's a bonehead, well known amongst the anti-creationist movement, with the intellect of the proverbial Sun reader. You can't debate with him because he doesn't know anything and listens to no one. I doubt if he even understands the difference between England and the United Kingdom.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby cathy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:38 am

AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.
A elephant with a atomic bomb wrapped around it maybe.

Wow can't believe you've just said that.

First biology has nothing to do with evolution. its just invoked . One can have all the biological knowledge in the world without any evolutionary concepts.
Evolution class should be a elective.
Firstly evolution has everything to do with biology, it happened, it underpins it. If someone gained all the biological knowledge in the world without mentioninsg evolutionary concepts, the first thing they would do is discover evolution and write a paper on evolutionary concepts. Cos as biological and geological knowledge grew it started to become so bloody obvious that if Darwin hadn't discovered it somebody else would. It happened-get over it.

Its the right of people to be offended by and oppose ideas that attack thier religion.
Nobody is denying you your right ot be offended. And I'm not keen on people that go out of their way to specifically offend someone elses religion just for the sake of it. There is a world of difference between legitimately criticising what someones religion claims and being rude for the sake of it about Jesus or Mohammed, God or Allah.

However evolution is not an idea, it is not taught to offend people, and I'm afraid if reality offends your religion there is not a lot can be done about it because it is a huge and important part of science. If reality attacks your religion you're going to have a hard time opposing it.

If your religion impacts on reality and the right of a child to learn, then those take priority. Take heart tho, it isn't just your denial of evolution that we have to ignore for the sake of society, we also don't teach or allow human sacrifice, sexism, racism or homophobia. We don't teach holocaust denial or astrology or clairvoyance despite the strongly held beliefs of some. And do you know why? Because we recognise they are wrong and teaching something that is wrong is an abuse of the right of a child to learn and make informed decisions about their life. Just because I'm deeply offended by the fact Cameron is PM, doesn't mean I can expect children to be taught he doesn't exist or be taught a fantasy alternative that if you interpret the evidence differently he could in fact be Ed Milliband.

in fact if equal time was given respectfully there would be no dust ups.
If creationism was remotely valid as a scientific view it would be given time. It isn't, it is silly and nonsense and a waste of a childs time as five minutes with any creationist would show. If we teach your ideological, unsubstantiated claims then we teach everyones for fairness. Astrology, satanism (kill a goat and get wish-biology of sorts), clairvoyance (useful tool in history-what was Nero really thinking when Rome burned), holocaust denial (creationsims political equivalent-similarities are endless), flat Earthism (still exists I believe and if we take all knowledge from a book-atlases are flat), moon is made of cheesism (Apollo missions its a rock worldviews/paradigms are fiercely denied by Wallace and Grommetts cheese worldview/paradigm-they went there too you know, I have the dvd to prove it).

These muslims have a identity and want it respected. Christian identity is not respected in schools but because they are just Englishmen it doesn't matter.
The modern power of these ethnic peoples gives them greater credibility in their criticisms of the historic attacks on religion by evolutionary ideas.
Reaped what they sowed
Firstly all honestly held religious views are respected and talked about in schools, we have RE here in the UK. But they are respected as the deeply held beliefs of some not as proven facts, scientific facts or scientific alternatives. And everyone has the right to disagree, or think them silly or not to believe anything at ll. I don't know a single non creationist religious person that expects their beliefs to be taught as scientifically valid in the way that creationists do. It is bizarre.

On those lines I would respect the religious views of any creationist that stood up and honestly stated that their religious beliefs meant rejecting all known and understood science-I don't disrespect the Amish for example. I would be happy for anyone I felt was honest enough to say that clearly, to come and speak in RE. What you want however, is that we lie about your narrow religious belief and pretend it is scientific. That isn't showing repect that is lying to promote one agenda over others, it would remain a lie whether it were a Christian or Muslim creationist stating it. And sadly I've learned there is no such thing as an honest creationist.

Creationists lost respect the day they started to deceive others by pretending a scientific validity they do not have. They lost that the day they tried to prevent others learning that science. The Amish for example, do not campaign to have children taught that cars and computers do not exist, not even their own children. I have no respect for creationists because everything they say is designed to try and confuse or mislead others into thinking they have a scientifically valid position that they do not. I don't respect them because they do not even respect the rights of other Christians not to be creationists but heap scorn upon them. And they even bully their own congregations, many of whom would be far happier if allowed to attend their churches AND accept the evidence for evolution. I know people who are desperately uncomfortable witht their churches stance on evolution but I don't see much teach the controversy going on there. Why not?

Respect for religion is earned, most faith earns respect in spades. Most muslims and Christians earn respect by their actions even if you cannot understand why they believe. Some muslims and Christians don't-bombs, intolerance, hate, sexism, racism and homophobia are the darker sides of religion, they are not worthy of respect, are proscribed in all schools and are not representative of faith. creationism is dishonest and bullying and therefore not worthy of respect either. Stop lying about science and you will be respected as honest deniers of science..
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:58 am

cathy wrote:
AHA.
So one left wing agenda to censor or control ideas on origins runs into another left wing agenda to allow great or any immigration of foreigners from very different civilizations.
A elephant with a atomic bomb wrapped around it maybe.

Wow can't believe you've just said that.



Yer, it's nasty boneheaded racism - we're all going to be perverted by evil foreigners. Strange accusation as we have about the world's largest diaspora and, within living memory, "ran" the place with the largest number of muslims - India.

Adolf Hitler's view was that the British were far too louch and easy going in our relationships with darker skinned people.

What I see in Byers is just a nasty form of Christian Nationalism, a call for theocracy with him and his pals in charge.
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Re: The elephant in the room.

Postby cathy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:43 am

Yer, it's nasty boneheaded racism - we're all going to be perverted by evil foreigners
Like my evil foreign parents. I believe the Irish make up the biggest immigrant group in Britain? And I think we were the terror threat bogeymen before we became the happy river dancing folk :D
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