Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:54 pm

marcsurtees wrote:Ithink that you are not reading what I write... It is in the Bible.
Genesis 1v31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


Shrug. We're all familiar with it. What on earth makes you think otherwise?

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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:41 am

marcsurtees wrote:One would have to do a study on the Bibilcal concept of death to determine whether or not death was part of a very appropriate creation.
Suffice it to say that taking into account the whole Bible, death is a bad thing and not "appropriate". It is called the last enemy and in the new creation there will not be death, which will make it very very good! So I deny the charge of reading things into the text.

We'll you're interpreting one bit of text to support your interpretation of another and highly selectively at that - Corinthians 5:17 - apparently the 'new creation' is already here, which somewhat undermines your thesis....

As for 'reading things in to the text' your guilty of garnishing Genesis just as every other creationist is because it doesn't give you all the detail you want.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:34 am

Marc I was always led to believe that Jesus died and saved us from sin - and in that supreme sacrifice and gave us eternal life as long as certain things were fulfilled (forgiveness, charity, honesty type things). Where are the 2000 year old peopls if that is the case, or is eternal life a myth?

Ithink that you are not reading what I write... It is in the Bible.
Genesis 1v31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
And you are not reading what I am writing. What you think is 'very good' I think is utter tripe. What I think is 'very good' you probably think is utter tripe.

Now all that says is god thought it was very good - I've managed to read that bit for myself!!! My point is that It does NOT specify what he thinks is very good. When did God tell you, Marc Surtees, exactly what he meant by 'very good' in that specific context. When did he tell you in that context that very good meant nothing was ever going to die. How does that tie in with the massive problems that no literal death would cause? How was it very good when he put a talking snake in there to ruin it all. How was it very good when Adam and Eve got on his nerves by nicking apples or the whole of it became so wicked he flooded the lot?

And tell me where in the list of punishments given out in Genesis - all the other creationist claptrap is mentioned, such as degenerating spines.

As for in depth study of bibles, when it comes to it I have huge faith in and respect for the non creationist Christians here. As Michael is a billion times cleverer, more knowledgable and honest than any creationist, and trained in biblical matters - I would take his word over yours any day. That is my informed decision based on the things you have said about science and the way you have mangled, deliberately misunderstood and deceived in the past. If you are dishonest about things I understand, how on Earth do you expect me to take you as a credible source on things I don't - like the bible and religion.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:44 am

cathy wrote:Marc I was always led to believe that Jesus died and saved us from sin - and in that supreme sacrifice and gave us eternal life [...]
As Michael is a billion times cleverer, more knowledgable and honest than any creationist, and trained in biblical matters - I would take his word over yours any day.

This debate doesn't belong on this thread, theologians have dealt with all your issues so take your pick. But whatever else you do, listen to the gospel preached by Michael (ignore us YECs) repent and believe, and I will see you in heaven.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:49 am

cathy wrote:
As for in depth study of bibles, when it comes to it I have huge faith in and respect for the non creationist Christians here. As Michael is a billion times cleverer, more knowledgable and honest than any creationist, and trained in biblical matters - I would take his word over yours any day. That is my informed decision based on the things you have said about science and the way you have mangled, deliberately misunderstood and deceived in the past. If you are dishonest about things I understand, how on Earth do you expect me to take you as a credible source on things I don't - like the bible and religion.


Marc Surtees is a monumental rank amateur. Michael is a professional. Likewise with Peter. They know the difference between amateurism and professionalism in their very bones.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:07 am

This debate doesn't belong on this thread, theologians have dealt with all your issues so take your pick. But whatever else you do, listen to the gospel preached by Michael (ignore us YECs) repent and believe, and I will see you in heaven.
You clearly don't understand aversion therapy Marc. Creationist theologians and creation 'scientists' really have done a good job of making the whole show unappealling. I'm not going to waste Michael or anyone elses time by pretending otherwise. Nor am I going to insult their faith which I have huge respect for by detailing to you exactly why creationism has made it impossible to believe. Though part of it rests on the fact that God would have done something to get rid of it by now.

It would take a miracle to undo the aversion therapy - like an honest creationist :lol:

Now can you just work that magic on chocolate.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:21 am

But whatever else you do, listen to the gospel preached by Michael (ignore us YECs) repent and believe, and I will see you in heaven
.

Well Marc, that was the gospel before Answers in Genesis (UK) came along in the mid 1990's. It was the gospel when I was involved with Youth for Christ (NI) in the late 70's/early 80's. It was the gospel preached by major evangelical figures such as Clive Calver and Graham Kendrick in the mid 80's. As far as I'm aware, it's a position held by most evengelical Christians (even the Evangelical Alliance).

Or are you being facetious and suggesting that belief in young Earth creationist doctrine is now essential for salvation and that if a Christian does not accept it, they cannot possibly be saved ?

Is Michael somehow preaching a different gospel than you do ?
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Michael » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:25 am

Peter

I think I am . I put some importance on both truth and Truth. Also I don't present god as an ogre who reacts violently to scrumping
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:35 am

Michael wrote:Peter

I think I am . I put some importance on both truth and Truth. Also I don't present god as an ogre who reacts violently to scrumping



I've often heard Richard Dawkins state that the one thing he finds objectionable about evangelical Christianity is the doctrine of original sin. Some evenagelical (fundamentalist ?) Christians take it to ridiculous lengths.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Michael » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Original sin is a good way of evading one's own fraility, immorality etc etcetc , i.e in Godtalk SIN
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:39 pm

Marc wrote: (ignore us YECs)
Marc just as a point of information:

Whilst you are trying to infiltrate state education - be it via free schools, free books, dodgy creationist teachers or crap dvds - you are impossible to ignore. I won't let you interfere in the rights of children to an education free from propaganda and dishonesty.

Whilst you are trying to infiltrate churches and convert non creationist or 'genesis not that big a deal' christians as per your pal Steve Lloyds 'special' talks for those deliberately agnostic on the topic you are impossible to ignore.

Whilst you spend time spreading your particular brand of creation pseudo science to less scientifically literate Christians as some kind of scientific choice you are impossible to ignore. And when you actively encourage them to go out and spread your particular creationist ideas they are impossible to ignore.

And whilst you don't take to task your creationist peers who call christians that don't conform to your brand of theology compromisers and less than happy you are impossible to ignore.

And when you make stupid claims about dinosaurs on the ark or mangle science beyond all recognition you are impossible to ignore. Scientists will react!!

Once when I saw visible signs that someone was a christian (eg wearing a cross) it made no difference whatsoever to me, in fact I was interested. Now my gut feeling is that I want to give them a science exam before I'll engage with them on any level at all.

You've worked very, very, very hard alongside your creationist peers to set up and make very visible your particular beliefs. Loads and loads of websites, attempting to spread your reach beyond existing creationists to encompass all of the christian faith. Loads of attempts to talk in churches and elsewhere. And beyond that to brainwash unwitting children.

I will see you in heaven.
I don't think it would be heaven for you if I was there - and I doubt they'll be letting me in at all do you? Oldest child has an interview in Edinburgh tho so maybe I'll see you there instead ha ha :) A very nice high street with shoe shops - as close to heaven as I'm going to get. :)
Last edited by cathy on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:40 pm

Michael wrote:Original sin is a good way of evading one's own fraility, immorality etc etcetc , i.e in Godtalk SIN

I see it, along with the medieval characterisation of Satan, as simply trying to dodge our responsibilities and truly repent. After all how can you truly repent your sins if you're attempting to divest some measure, however small, of responsibility in the direction of these theological constructs.

marcsurtees wrote:But whatever else you do, listen to the gospel preached by Michael (ignore us YECs) repent and believe,

So finally when pushed up against the wall publicly Marc concedes that for the greater Christian good creationism can be sacrificed.... and by extension is not a salvation issue.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:13 pm

jon_12091 wrote:
Michael wrote:Original sin is a good way of evading one's own fraility, immorality etc etcetc , i.e in Godtalk SIN

I see it, along with the medieval characterisation of Satan, as simply trying to dodge our responsibilities and truly repent. After all how can you truly repent your sins if you're attempting to divest some measure, however small, of responsibility in the direction of these theological constructs.

marcsurtees wrote:But whatever else you do, listen to the gospel preached by Michael (ignore us YECs) repent and believe,

So finally when pushed up against the wall publicly Marc concedes that for the greater Christian good creationism can be sacrificed.... and by extension is not a salvation issue.


Actually I have been saying that for quite a long time......
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:21 pm

Actually I have been saying that for quite a long time......
Only here as far as I can see, and only as a final resort. And at the end of the day that doesn't really count for much.

Please say it loudly and clearly and obviously on your website and on all the creationist sites and to all the creationist groups that you are involved with, and to all your creationist friends and the congregations in your creationist church. If you stop actively promoting creation pseudo 'science' and instead start promoting that view whenever and wherever you can or wherever there is creationist bs then I will take you seriously. Until then it is just empty words.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:58 pm

cathy wrote:Please say it loudly and clearly and obviously on your website and on all the creationist sites and to all the creationist groups that you are involved with, and to all your creationist friends and the congregations in your creationist church. If you stop actively promoting creation pseudo 'science' and instead start promoting that view whenever and wherever you can or wherever there is creationist bs then I will take you seriously. Until then it is just empty words.

They can't seeing as the whole schtick rests rather heavily on a particular doctrinal position regarding Scripture - the typical creationist believing that it is inerrant believes that nothing in the Bible is contrary to fact and apply a rather literal reading in most cases (and have a rather elastic sense of what is and isn't 'poetic'). The most hardline, i.e. Ham, believe that to read it any other way is rebelling against God and defaming Biblical truth. It is possible to hold to inerrancy and not be a creationist, but once you step away from a literal interpretation of Genesis 'creationism' collapses like a wet paper bag because it simply can't exist without its pseudo-theological and doctrinal life-support. If you can take or leave creation story as a matter of 'faith' then people are always going to take it as a story because it makes no sense set against the context of physical reality. I've always seen creationism as something of a shell game. After his admission Marc has just started playing it with no shells under which to hide the pea.
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