Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:20 am

Peter Henderson wrote:
What crimes committed by babies deserves their mass execution ?


If a baby or very young child dies Marc, what happens to their soul ? Likewise, those children or adults with severe special needs who cannot possibly understand the gospel ? Or even aborted fetuses ?

Your friend ploughboy over on Premier thinks no one is without sin, even those who fall into the catagories mentioned abovea nd all are subject to (and deserving of) God's wrath, even those incapable of understanding the gospel and what it means to be saved.

I find this view appalling.


Ploughboy is a nasty, arrogant, piece of work, Peter. The arrogance is the arrogance of ignorance.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:40 am

So your opinion is that death at the age of 70 or 80 after a (sometimes prolonged) period of decrepitude is "very good".

Interesting to see that the only response to the actual question is yes, if you are Hindu.
I would like to see the answer to the question from the Christians on the forum.
And before Cathy jumps in with "you never answer my questions" I did answer point by point Cathy's questions on the flood posted on this thread. And I admit that my answers beg a lot of other questions but the answers to those belong on the Scripture debate thread which I do not contribute to, because my basic premise that the Bible is God's reliable revelation to human kind and debate with others who do not share that view woudl be completely pointless.
Marc
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:50 am

Roger Stanyard wrote:Your "worldview" seems indistinguisable from hard line Nazis in the 30s and 40s.


Either you do not understand the Biblical worldview or the Nazi worldview. The way in which any German Christians who did object to Hilter were treated shows that your claim is not evidence based.
Marc
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:17 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:Lande, R. 2009. Adaptation to an extraordinary environment by evolution of phenotypic plasticity and genetic assimilation. Journal of Evolutionary Biology 22: 1435-1446.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/adapta ... milation/#

I've read clearer Abstracts...

So Marc is an evolutionist after all (or did God only invent evolution after the Flood)?


The whole paper is free at the following link: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 1754.x/pdf
And yes as you should have realised already I am a YEC catastrophist evolutionist, who doesn't believe in universal common descent.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:23 am

Interesting to see that the only response to the actual question is yes, if you are Hindu.
I would like to see the answer to the question from the Christians on the forum.
Actually the point I was making was that death is horrendous in YOUR opinion, and I'd agree 100% with YOUR opinion in that respect, to us individuals it is not 'very good'. But that doesn't make it not 'very good' in the greater scheme of things. The Hindu take on it was just an example. My point was that YOUR opinion (and mine) is not necessarily your Gods, how do you personally know what a supernatural deity existing outside of time thinks is 'very good'?

And you haven't answered that question. Third time of asking!!!!!!!!

And you've ignored the 'very good' world where according to you nothing would die. If nothing dies, billions of us share the planet with trillions of frogs etc. Why don't you try an experiment Marc - to test your 'very good'. You and your creationist pals go into a small room, work it out to represent how many people per square metre would be on the Earth without death. Count the individual pieces of fresh frogspawn in an average sized pond and bring in that many adult frogs. times say 6000, to give the ave number after 6000 years.

Perhaps some mice. Cos when I was in my final year at uni a mouse moved into our house. At first we thought her very cute, called her Ethel and fed her cheese from our meagre student supplies. But very soon we were overun with Ethels family. And we weren't happy bunnies (oh and you'll need a fair few bunnies as well). She seemed to breed like - well a mouse. Even the animal rights veggie was putting down traps. So maybe 500/600 mice, you're a biologist 6000 years worth at ave rate for that area with no death. Elephants may be ok, they'd take a while to populate. Um some insects. Add humans a rate of one per couple per year - rather than 9 months to account for first three months of being too exhausted to think of sex. And whilst you're at it get Ken to knock you up some average sized animatronic dinos. They seemed to lay a fair few eggs.

Oh and you'll need to drink several hundred buckets of Actimel to simulate the very fast reproducing but no longer dying bacteria in your gut.

Anyway the point is, once you've carried out this experiment for say a month or two - tell me is your opinion of 'very good' meaning no death - still 'very good'?

And before Cathy jumps in with "you never answer my questions" I did answer point by point Cathy's questions on the flood posted on this thread.
No you didn't you made vague comments that drowning innocents was unjust - didn't answer the question of how somebody merciful and good could do that.

And that you didn't know what the crimes were but they may have deserved drowning - not really an answer. Which made me wonder what sort of Christian you were? I'm an atheist cow but even I think if a ruling state inflicts the sorts of punishments that, for example, rapists and murderers deserve (eg death penalty) it would be a barbaric state that had descended to their level. So no you've never answered my questions you've answered what you wish I'd asked instead.

Either you do not understand the Biblical worldview or the Nazi worldview. The way in which any German Christians who did object to Hilter were treated shows that your claim is not evidence based.

Deliberate misunderstanding there Marc. In context, Roger is referring to your worldview of global child/baby drowning flood. Killing the innocents. And nothing to do with the experiences of German Christians during the holocaust. Sunday was world holocaust day and cos I happened to be in town I listened to the holocaust speeches. They specifically said it was a stand against all genocides!!!!!!!!! Now what exactly was this mythical flood YOU are keen to prove happened if not an act of indiscriminate genocide?
Last edited by cathy on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Dagsannr » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:38 am

Marc,

The flood is theologically and logically implausible. Why do you try to defend its technical aspects when the whole basis for the event is so flawed? Is it that you can pick on the flecks of dust that make up the geological and biological issues but can't cope with the plank that is the reason for the flood in the first place?

Forget everything aside from the utter pointlessness of having a global flood, just to remove wicked people from the Earth.

Is a 100% literal interpretation of the bible so important to you? Is your faith so weak that it can't surivive without the bible to uphold it in every single tiny aspect?
There are 2 types of people in the world:

Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:57 pm

The flood is theologically and logically implausible. Why do you try to defend its technical aspects when the whole basis for the event is so flawed? Is it that you can pick on the flecks of dust that make up the geological and biological issues but can't cope with the plank that is the reason for the flood in the first place?

That it didn't happen is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain. But for Marc it is clearly very important to his faith hence the number of hours he spends trying to persuade himself and others that it did happen.

What I find even harder to understand tho, is why someone should base all their faith on an act that is, by anyones standards, morally indefensible. Especially when the NT part of that religion is so firmly based on the very opposite of any act of genocide at all.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:10 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:Your "worldview" seems indistinguisable from hard line Nazis in the 30s and 40s.


Either you do not understand the Biblical worldview or the Nazi worldview. The way in which any German Christians who did object to Hilter were treated shows that your claim is not evidence based.


I understand both and neither are "worldviews".

Shrug.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:25 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:Your "worldview" seems indistinguisable from hard line Nazis in the 30s and 40s.


Either you do not understand the Biblical worldview or the Nazi worldview. The way in which any German Christians who did object to Hilter were treated shows that your claim is not evidence based.


I understand both and neither are "worldviews".

Shrug.

Strange isn't it that Hitler and the Nazi movement detested "communism", closed it down as a movement, imprisoned its leaders in concentration camps and invaded the communist USSR. All basically atheistic. It wasn't the Christians who stood up to Hitler; it was the hard political left. Germany in the 1930s and 40s was a deeply Christian country. It was a communist Red Army that broke the back of the Wehrmacht and saved us from tyranny.

Precisely who amongst the 500,000 congregation of the Nazi's own church stood up and helped defeat Hitler?

We get this crapola from American fundies all the time; how they were the goodies and had we had their "worldview" everything would have been hunky dory. Which, of course, explains why the Southern Baptists were such splendid people -what, with their segregated churches, racism, support for Jim Crow laws, opposition to the civil rights movement, membership of the KKK, they clearly stood up against fascism. Volunteered on mass in 1939 to come to Europe to fight Hitler.

Bible believing Christian -= sink of ignorance and bigotry masquerading as moral superiority.

Get off your high horses Surtees and start living in the real world.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:33 pm

marcsurtees wrote:And I admit that my answers beg a lot of other questions but the answers to those belong on the Scripture debate thread which I do not contribute to, because my basic premise that the Bible is God's reliable revelation to human kind and debate with others who do not share that view woudl be completely pointless.


So why the heck have you spent the last three years in this forum? Your sole achievement has been to turn one Christian into a confirmed atheist and act as a recruiting seargent for the BCSE.

Not much rewards for your efforts, is it?
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:42 pm

And I admit that my answers beg a lot of other questions but the answers to those belong on the Scripture debate thread which I do not contribute to, because my basic premise that the Bible is God's reliable revelation to human kind and debate with others who do not share that view woudl be completely pointless.


Oh and I forgot to say - that is clearly nonsense. How can that be your basic premise when you cannot answer the simplest questions about massive discrepancies in the first few pages and don't have a clue about what order things were supposedly created.

And how can that be your basic premise when you make all sorts of things up to deal with inconvenient facts, like dodgy spines or death, when your reliable revelation gives a very clear specific punishment that doesn't involve any of the things you've stated it does. More than half the creationist claims are not in the book of Genesis at all, including your post flood catastrophes!!!!!!

And how can that be your basice premise when you clearly haven't a clue who the sons of God are that are bustling round marrying daughters of men, nor where it specifies who Cains wife was or a host of other problems. Nor can it be Gods reliable revelation if it has to match your opinion of what is 'very good'. If its gods reliable revelation he doesn't really need you to fill in what is meant by 'very good'

I stand by my belief that you haven't read the first bit properly you just jumped on the creationist bandwagon. You need to demonstrate I'm wrong.

Debating with others who don't share that view would not be pointless if you had a valid view to share. You don't debate cos you don't know the answers to any of those issues and have treated Genesis like you treat science. If in doubt make something up, it won't really matter.
Last edited by cathy on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby cathy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:47 pm

Your sole achievement has been to turn one Christian into a confirmed atheist and act as a recruiting seargent for the BCSE.
Confirmed and heading toward gnu with every new creationist revelation.

Get off your high horses Surtees and start living in the real world.
Now we know miracles don't happen.
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:26 pm

cathy wrote:
Interesting to see that the only response to the actual question is yes, if you are Hindu.
I would like to see the answer to the question from the Christians on the forum.
Actually the point I was making was that death is horrendous in YOUR opinion, and I'd agree 100% with YOUR opinion in that respect, to us individuals it is not 'very good'. But that doesn't make it not 'very good' in the greater scheme of things. The Hindu take on it was just an example. My point was that YOUR opinion (and mine) is not necessarily your Gods, how do you personally know what a supernatural deity existing outside of time thinks is 'very good'?

And you haven't answered that question. Third time of asking!!!!!!!!


Ithink that you are not reading what I write... It is in the Bible.
Genesis 1v31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Marc
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby Michael » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:38 pm

Genesis does not say what very good actually is. You and YECs just put your view on it.

In his commentary Westermann says that word good means a variety of things and good is best seen as "appropriate" rather than a fixed quality. He say that creation is good for its purpose. No mention of death etc.

I wish you would stop doing eisegesis
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Re: Skeptics in the pub and Andy McIntosh ?

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:00 pm

Michael wrote:Genesis does not say what very good actually is. You and YECs just put your view on it.

In his commentary Westermann says that word good means a variety of things and good is best seen as "appropriate" rather than a fixed quality. He say that creation is good for its purpose. No mention of death etc.

I wish you would stop doing eisegesis

One would have to do a study on the Bibilcal concept of death to determine whether or not death was part of a very appropriate creation.
Suffice it to say that taking into account the whole Bible, death is a bad thing and not "appropriate". It is called the last enemy and in the new creation there will not be death, which will make it very very good! So I deny the charge of reading things into the text.
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