A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Creationist bloggers can be infuriating. If one has infuriated you by persisting in nonsense even when corrected, or refusing to reply to your criiticsm, you may feel driven to recording the fact. If so, you may register your disapproval here and hope a response is forthcoming.

Moderator: Moderators

1. YEC Bob Sorensen 2. YEC Issac Bourne

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:31 pm

I have just sent the following email:

"1) Please see the messages below, which gave the details of how
(after I emailed him) Mr Sorensen posted some utterly FALSE statements
about me on his Piltdown Superman blog - where NO comments by anyone
else can be submitted. Interestingly, the desperate and anonymous
comment about me on his blog post dated 13 September - the one saying
that I know "nothing about science and can't string two logical
thoughts together" - has thankfully been removed. My hunch, in the
absence of any denial although I sought one, is that the comment was
indeed made by Dr Sarfati. And that he has persuaded Mr Sorensen to
remove it - either because I guessed who said it, or because he didn't
realise that it would appear online, or perhaps for reasons of
conscience. However, I cannot be certain of this. Assuming the quote is
a real one, whoever actually said it, Mr Sorensen quietly removed it a
couple of days ago.

(2) I recently visited the blog of Issac Bourne ('YEC Headquarters')
where comments ARE allowed, and asked him a couple of science-related
questions under his post 'Atheists run scared of creationist Ken Ham?'
(Mr Bourne appears to assume that anybody sceptical about young Earth
creationism must be an atheist): http://yecheadquarters.org/
Mr Bourne - also known as 'Ikester7579' - then joined this discussion
thread at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.
com/review/R1AFXXSP41INOX/ref=cm_cd_pg_oldest?
ie=UTF8&asin=B002LVVCQM&cdForum=FxPHTZXZEXILLC&cdPage=1&cdSort=newest&cdThread=Tx25B699FX27K8B&store=digital-
text [it's the thread under Joe Boudreault's review of 'The Greatest Show on Earth' at Amazon.com]
The open-minded among you may wish to read his series of posts there
as Ikester7579 - which began on 16 September at 9:50:12 PM PDT. And
then the series of posts replying to him. After claiming that he was
the victim of 'Ad hominem' attacks at Amazon.com, he has utterly
IGNORED the latest of these posts. Most of the posts were to do with
science - the very topic he claimed that we were all reluctant to
discuss, apparently because we all prefer to resort to insults instead.
Before the latest lot of challenges to Mr Bourne's claimed science
were posted at the Amazon.com thread, he wrote the following on Ken
Ham's Facebook page: "We have better arguments which means they will
have to really work to keep their beloved theory out of hot water. I am
currently debated several evolutionists right now that their arguments
are so weak all they can do is either nick pick and argue on semantics
or call me a liar when they cannot even prove that. What keeps
evolution top dog theory is the evolutionist willingness to use strong
arm tactics and cop out excuses. I'm going to post this on my blog on
the front page and call them the cowards that they are."
After most of the latest rebuttals to Mr Bourne's arguments appeared
at Amazon.com - which thread I reiterate he hastily exited, though he
is of course free to return - he made the following comment under his
blog post dated 16 August: "It would seem that all this was, as of
lately, a bunch of atheists attempts to defend themselves where their
egos got bruised. I went to their blog on Amazon to meet them head on
and all they could do was attack me and refused to debate me with any
science. So I left. I thought about deleting the posts here because it
was all a waste of time but people are welcome to their opinion so I
leave them unless they decide to get nasty. So if they get deleted that
is what happened. 99% of what they posted over there was attacks. I
thought I might go back if they straightened up but it was just one
long attack and character assassination.
Knowing how they like to hide things when they mess up, don't be
surprised if all the bad things said either get edited or deleted then
they say: What you talking about, that never happened? It's happened
before and with the character I see being displayed over there it would
not surprise me if they did this also to save face. Of course now since
I have exposed what they did they will now say all kinds of stuff. Not
worried. Learned a long time ago that if you worry and show it, it only
encourages them. So I say have at it because it proves all my points
here".
Please DO review the Amazon.com thread to see whether it confirms what
Mr Bourne wrote at Facebook and then under his blog. I contend that it
does not. But check this for yourselves! Mr Bourne appears now to have
closed the comments facility under his blog post - but I contacted him
early yesterday to point out how he has misrepresented what happened at
the Amazon.com thread and also failed to answer a number of science-
related questions put to him (even to say 'I don't know' which would be
an acceptable answer if that is the case).
Today I have received an email from Mr Bourne (it was not marked
confidential). Here it is:
"Hi,
I have already been warned about you from others on Amazon and
facebook. The debate is over you guys never had any science to debate
me on. I was told that is the way you are and are a bitter person. Your
reputation is getting around and I here some are going to do web pages
on you warning others about your intense hatred for anyone whom
disagrees with evolution or is just believes in God. And no I'm not
telling you who told me this. But good luck on your hate campaign. We
all need a little more of that.
Oh, and you think knowing and using my real name bothers me? It's been
out for years the only reason I go by my user name is because that's
more of what I am recognized with. But when an atheist has to go look
it up like you it tells me that the debate is going to be based more on
hatred then any science. So I knew once I went to the Amazon blog and
saw you already had my name up that you were only going to spew hatred.
But because I had already committed I posted anyway knowing full well
where the debate was going to go. You fooled no one.
I find it ironic that those with radical hatred like you all think the
same and do the very same things such as look for my real name. That
makes what I do much easier because I never have to guess I just
categorize you guys according to what you do on my list. The main thing
that made everyone mad at Amazon blog is because I did not fall for
your tactics. I knew what they were and just watch you guys hit them
one by one. If this were some type of game where I could bet what was
coming next I'd be rich.
Issac"
Mr Bourne has apparently been informed by other like-minded people
that I have an "intense hatred for anyone whom disagrees with
evolution" and he claims that unnamed people are going to write 'web
pages' on me. He apparently thinks that I should be concerned about
this news. But any truthful web page about me by young Earth
creationists would not concern me in the least!
The question that comes to my mind is this. If young Earth creationist
Christians have the ultimate truth about origins (many Christians are
NOT YECs), and are genuinely speaking for a God who claims at least to
be 'the way the truth and the life' and a God of love and justice, why
do many - though not all - of them blatantly LIE about their critics?
Critics who are often people they have never even met. And fail to
answer, or even acknowledge, sceptical questions that are put forward
about their scientific claims and their denials of mainstream science?
Perhaps they think it is a sin to admit "I don't have the answer to
your question, I'm still looking for it"?
The person who runs 'Bible.and.Science.Forum' is an ex YEC and still a
Christian by the way. He posts at Amazon.com as One Who Learns Online.
NOT an 'atheist'.
A H-R"
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:47 pm

I have not commented on this blog post. Had I done so, my comment would have been "why?"
http://gracesalt.wordpress.com/2012/09/ ... -me-first/
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:43 pm

As I've mentioned under 'Science only', occasionally clumsy sceptics have been giving CMI a hard time during 2012 over this article (note the arrogant tone of some of their obfuscatory responses): http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

I have just reminded them that they did NOT deal with my email of 12 April, quoted elsewhere on this website:
"
http://www.rationalwiki.wiki/101_eviden ... young_age-
of_the_Earth_and_the_universe

3. "The decay in the human genome due to multiple slightly deleterious
mutations each generation is consistent with an origin several thousand
years ago". LIAR. Also see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-
environment-17127617

12. "This eliminates supposed evidence for millions of years". LIAR.

13. "This wipes out hundreds of millions of years of time and is
consistent with extremely rapid formation during the biblical Flood".
Another made up 'fact'.

14. A polystrate tree deposited by Noah's Flood? Or just an old
chestnut?

31. Is this item a joke? At least the YEC LIE that scientists would
think Surtsey was millions of years' old, if they had not watched its
formation, has not been included.

41. "...making the amount of sediment perfectly consistent with a
history of thousands of years". Another made up 'fact'.

54. The rebuttal states: "Unlike living entities, diamonds are not
made from atmospheric carbon, but are formed deep within the Earth.
They naturally contain some nitrogen that can be altered by decay of
radioactive elements present in the diamond into C14. Radiocarbon
dating is based on the measured ratio of unstable C14 to stable C12 and
C13 in atmospheric carbon dioxide - but the original ratio of these two
isotopes in a newly-created diamond is unknown". I believe SOME newly
formed diamonds contain subducted carbonaceous matter from deceased
organisms - but by the time they reach the surface within kimberlites
any traces of 'intrinsic' C14 are likely to result from machine
contamination.

59. "Evidence of a period of rapid radioactive decay in the recent
past (lead and helium concentrations and diffusion rates in zircons)
point to a young earth explanation". LIAR. Humphreys used helium
diffusion rates in a laboratory vacuum setting as a proxy for surface
(and not deep) conditions I believe.

60. "The amount of helium, a product of alpha-decay of radioactive
elements, retained in zircons in granite is consistent with an age of
6,000+-2000 years, not the supposed billions of years". LIAR.

94. Tosh. Why are there ANY supernovae already observed from Earth in
a '6,000 year old universe'?

95. Tosh.

100. You refer to earth destroying floods, and your link mentions the
epic of Gilgamesh. http://www.emw.org.uk/magazine/2012/01/old-
testament/
"One particular focus of Old Testament studies is the relationship
between the texts of the Old Testament Scriptures and other ancient
documents which have been discovered in the Near East. Two of the best-
known of these documents are the Enuma Elish, usually described as a
creation myth, and The Gilgamesh Epic, a Babylonian account of the
Flood.
Peter Enns, whose 2005 book Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals
and the Problem of the Old Testament has provoked a considerable
controversy in this field, is the latest in a line of scholars who has
observed similarities between the text of Genesis and Exodus on the one
hand, and these other documents on the other. He believes that these
similarities are so close as to establish a relationship of influence
and dependence. That is, the Old Testament has been shaped by the
Ancient Near Eastern framework of ideas - and perhaps even its
documents.
What are we to make of all this? Are we obliged to submit our opinions
to the superior wisdom of the academy?".
"I will preach the inspiration of Scripture and I will study the form
of the text rejoicing each time I see more of its nuances. I am happy
to close my copy of Enuma Elish, never to read it again, whilst
returning to Genesis year after year to be fed and to feed those who
hear me. There is no comparison!"."
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:57 pm

Further email exchange with YEC blogger Issac Bourne (YEC Headquarters):


Him to me:
"Hi,
You may think all of what was said bothers me but it really does not.
I expected as much because you all are so predictable. But keep sending
the e-mails if it makes you feel better. I have heard it all before
nothing you showed or said is anything new. All I see here is a bunch
of atheists with huge egos trying to cover up where they messed up and
try to get me to come back and debate them.
If you guys were the slightest interested in a scientific debate, what
happened would not have happened, right? I cannot even count the times
that other atheists pulled the same exact trick on me. I'm not into
putting my unprotected hand into a hornets nest to get stung over and
over. I learned the first time. And the only reason I played along this
time is because I always have hope that I just might be wrong that this
won't happen. But that never happens. You guys showed you could not be
honest in your intent to debate me, that's your problem. Making it look
like mine just shows you are cowards and refuse to show responsibility
for what you do. You guys messed up just face it like mature adults.
Issac
Want information on creation? Click here: http://www.yecheadquarters.
org";

Me to him:
"Issac
Your recent behaviour is typical of science-denying YECs. You ran away
from the discussion at Amazon.com when scientific arguments were made
that you could not or would not deal with. And you then misrepresented
what happened, both on Facebook and under your Ken Ham blog post. You
pretended that we were all atheists and that all we did was post 'Ad
hominems'. Neither claim is true.
Your claim now, that all of us on the Boudreault Amazon.com 'Show'
thread don't have the slightest interested in a scientific debate, is
utterly FALSE.
All of which is why I sent my last reply, copied to both YECs and
their critics.
This exchange is being added to both the Amazon.com thread and the
BCSE Community Forum.
If you do not return to the Amazon.com thread to deal with all the
recent science related points put to you, including by myself, then it
is you who is the coward. Not any of us.
Ashley".
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:29 am

ANOTHER exchange:

Ikester7579 aka Issac Bourne to me:
"Hi,
Man you make a fuss out of such a small thing. All I see here is your
hatred, along with everyone Else's, and your eagerness to show it. You
guys had your chance and messed up. Go whine to someone who actually
cares.
Oh one more thing. Did you thin showing me in that last letter that
you sent what was said to 20 other people would bother me? I actually
laughed at that. It shows that your hatred and bitterness is so out of
control that you take it all so personally you cannot help yourself.
Man, I hate to be you. I bet you have high blood pressure from all the
stress that comes along with all the hatred and bitterness. I'll pray
for you.
For each e-mail you send warrants another prayer. So keep sending them
and I'll keep praying for you.
Issac
Want information on creation? Click here: http://www.yecheadquarters.
org";

Me to him:
"Lying is not a 'small thing'".
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:37 am

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

"The events in Genesis 1–11 would have been remembered and passed down for generations...". So WHAT happened to the historical records that mankind was almost wiped out in a worldwide flood with only eight survivors - but humanity then rapidly increased in number after God's judgment and recolonised the world, Mr Ham? WHY would humanity forget (as alleged by the apostle Peter) such a catastrophe - if it was a real, historical event only about 2,000 years' earlier? (They might be confused about exactly why it happened but they surely would not forget that it DID happen.)

"...But, as man multiplied after the global Flood, later generations that embraced false gods would have every reason to corrupt those accounts and attribute them to their own idols...". And the evidence that they did this is what, exactly? Oh, it must be those OTHER (wrong) regional flood legends - which somehow were embraced instead of the 'real, historical, worldwide flood'!

And am I the only one who thinks Mr Ham believes that Mr Enns is not a real Christian?
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:46 am

Anyone else planning to watch this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00xnr47
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:46 pm

A further email to YEC blogger Issac Bourne is necessary - as just sent:


"YEC Issac Bourne aka Ikester7579 - liar extraordinaire?

JUST FOR THE RECORD

I have had two further email exchanges with Mr Bourne, as below:

IB: "Hi,
You may think all of what was said bothers me but it really does not.
I expected as much because you all are so predictable. But keep
sending
the e-mails if it makes you feel better. I have heard it all before
nothing you showed or said is anything new. All I see here is a bunch
of atheists with huge egos trying to cover up where they messed up
and
try to get me to come back and debate them.
If you guys were the slightest interested in a scientific debate,
what
happened would not have happened, right? I cannot even count the
times
that other atheists pulled the same exact trick on me. I'm not into
putting my unprotected hand into a hornets nest to get stung over and
over. I learned the first time. And the only reason I played along
this
time is because I always have hope that I just might be wrong that
this
won't happen. But that never happens. You guys showed you could not
be
honest in your intent to debate me, that's your problem. Making it
look
like mine just shows you are cowards and refuse to show
responsibility
for what you do. You guys messed up just face it like mature adults.
Issac"

AH-R: "Issac
Your recent behaviour is typical of science-denying YECs. You ran
away
from the discussion at Amazon.com when scientific arguments were made
that you could not or would not deal with. And you then
misrepresented
what happened, both on Facebook and under your Ken Ham blog post. You
pretended that we were all atheists and that all we did was post 'Ad
hominems'. Neither claim is true.
Your claim now, that all of us on the Boudreault Amazon.com 'Show'
thread don't have the slightest interested in a scientific debate, is
utterly FALSE.
All of which is why I sent my last reply, copied to both YECs and
their critics.
This exchange is being added to both the Amazon.com thread and the
BCSE Community Forum.
If you do not return to the Amazon.com thread to deal with all the
recent science related points put to you, including by myself, then
it
is you who is the coward. Not any of us.
Ashley"

IB: "Hi,
Man you make a fuss out of such a small thing. All I see here is your
hatred, along with everyone Else's, and your eagerness to show it.
You
guys had your chance and messed up. Go whine to someone who actually
cares.
Oh one more thing. Did you thin showing me in that last letter that
you sent what was said to 20 other people would bother me? I actually
laughed at that. It shows that your hatred and bitterness is so out
of
control that you take it all so personally you cannot help yourself.
Man, I hate to be you. I bet you have high blood pressure from all
the
stress that comes along with all the hatred and bitterness. I'll pray
for you.
For each e-mail you send warrants another prayer. So keep sending
them
and I'll keep praying for you."

AH-R: "Lying is not a 'small thing'.

My last reply was sent at 3.23 am UK time on 21 September.

Although the facility for others to comment further under his blog
post of 16 August appears now to have been disabled, Mr Bourne has
added a further, somewhat garbled, comment of his own there:
"Update: Now the atheists e-mail me claiming that what happened never
happened. And what was said was never said and that I am the liar here.
Oh well I say let them live in their fantasy where they are the only
truth tellers and everyone else are liars. By the way if they read this
I put their e-mails in my spam box so everything now goes in my spam
box which I never read."
See http://yecheadquarters.org/?p=1433#comments

Mr Bourne is in Florida, which is I believe 6 hours behind the UK
(still on British Summer Time). Thus his comment, timed at 12.19 am on
21 September, must have been made at 6.19 am BST today.

NO, Mr Bourne. I have NOT stated that there were NO Ad hominems,
directed at Ikester7579, on the Amazon.com thread (there were none from
ME whilst he was still posting there however, indeed I challenged
someone else's use of the word 'troll'). My POINT is that Mr Bourne's
claim that none of us were "the slightest interested in a scientific
debate" is ABSOLUTELY AND PATENTLY FALSE.

If you read the posts on the Amazon.com thread from when Ikester7579
first appeared (around 20 pages back) you will see that he IGNORED
questions about his own science arguments and almost completely IGNORED
science-related comments, rebuttals and questions from a number of
other participants - notably David Levin, Christine Janis, Stickler,
One Who Learns Online, A J Egerton and myself. Instead, when he
returned to the thread the second time after several scientific
questions had already been put to him, Mr Bourne ignored them and
instead wrote: "I love it how when evolutionists cannot really debunk
anything using real science they resort to Ad Hominems attacks. Keep it
up you just prove my points on how weak the evolutionist argument is."
This particular comment being made at 6:54:02 PM on 17 September.

Unsurprisingly, after another flurry of posts by him where he kept
complaining about 'Ad hominems', he hastily abandoned the thread - and
started moaning about us all, first on Ken Ham's Facebook page and then
under his 16 August blog post. Either he is hypersensitive - or he
really ran away because he had no scientific answers to offer to the
points raised by others on the thread.

I will of course post this message onto the Amazon.com thread that Mr
Bourne briefly participated in (and also the BCSE Community Forum -
which is open to ALL including young Earth creationists).

Ashley Haworth-Roberts
PS If Mr Bourne is not a liar, then his analytical skills must be
sadly lacking.
PPS The reviewer Joe Boudreault is a young Earth creationist Christian
- not an atheist. I wonder if he has seen Issac's interventions in the
thread under his Dawkins book review?"
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:23 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/09/20/peter-enns-wants-children-to-reject-genesis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+KenHam+%28Around+the+World+with+Ken+Ham%29

"The events in Genesis 1–11 would have been remembered and passed down for generations...". So WHAT happened to the historical records that mankind was almost wiped out in a worldwide flood with only eight survivors - but humanity then rapidly increased in number after God's judgment and recolonised the world, Mr Ham? WHY would humanity forget (as alleged by the apostle Peter) such a catastrophe - if it was a real, historical event only about 2,000 years' earlier? (They might be confused about exactly why it happened but they surely would not forget that it DID happen.)

"...But, as man multiplied after the global Flood, later generations that embraced false gods would have every reason to corrupt those accounts and attribute them to their own idols...". And the evidence that they did this is what, exactly? Oh, it must be those OTHER (wrong) regional flood legends - which somehow were embraced instead of the 'real, historical, worldwide flood'!

And am I the only one who thinks Mr Ham believes that Mr Enns is not a real Christian?


Mr Enns hits back: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/ ... -strategy/
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:25 pm

PS Just seen that the Enns blog is in another live thread.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:55 pm

Bob Sorensen - author of StormBringer's Thunder and numerous other blogs - is NO Poe:
http://stormbringer005.blogspot.co.uk/
I repeat - he is genuine.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:18 pm

There's a wealth of 'stuff' here: http://www.sixdaycreation.com/cms/
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:39 pm

I plan to check this out later this evening: http://kgov.com/lawrence-krauss-debates-a-creationist (the Krauss-Faulkner planned debate was the victim of technical issues)
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:26 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:Anyone else planning to watch this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00xnr47


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview ... 1&skip=100
The return of YEC Luther Wesley Baxter!
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:17 am

Information about the Propaganda Museum (which I believe claims to be 'scientific' as well as Bible-inspired): http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... ing-points

"Creationists and evolutionists have the exact same evidence, but we have different starting points, so we often reach different conclusions".
Those who aren't creationists start with the EVIDENCE and what previous evidence has pointed to. A novel idea!
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