Two opportunistic YECs

[a_haworthroberts]

Tas Walker 20.4.12
http://www.biblicalgeology.net/blog/tit ... ahs-flood/
'The Titanic illustrates Noah's Flood'
"When the Titanic collided with the iceberg, it set in train a
sequence of events that continued for more than two hours until the
ship reached a new equilibrium on the ocean bottom. This process can be
used as an illustration of the catastrophe of Noah's Flood, which
engulfed our globe.
The Flood began, according to the Bible with a breaking up of the
fountains of the great deep, and the opening of the windows of heaven
(Genesis 7:11). The Flood involved a train of events that followed a
logical sequence of cause and effect, until the earth reached a new
equilibrium. Because the earth is so much larger than the Titanic, the
catastrophe of the Flood took much longer to unfold. The Bible records
it lasted for just over 12 months. Ongoing climatic effects continued
for hundreds of years.
During Noah's Flood, vast quantities water moved over the surface of
the earth, eroding the landscape and depositing sediment in enormous
sedimentary basins. This redistribution of mass caused movement of the
earth's plates. This in turn generated huge volumes of molten magma,
the movement of which further redistributed mass on the globe -
laterally and radially. The cooling of the magma also affected the
movement of plates and ocean levels. Through the process some parts of
the earth's crust gradually sank lower and others rose, until the earth
eventually reached a new equilibrium, which we enjoy today.
Geological history is often presented as a list of disconnected
events. We read about sedimentation, erosion, mountain building,
volcanic eruptions, and ice ages, each separated from the other by tens
of millions of years. With so much time between events they seem to be
unrelated. However, by looking at geology as the unfolding of one huge
catastrophe that overtook our globe, we can begin to connect the dots."
Yes, FALLACIOUSLY join the jots - and thus COMPRESS the planet's real
history to fit with Bible genealogies. Incidentally YECs believe - from
how Psalm 104 is translated in SOME versions of the Bible - that the
depth of the oceans increased greatly post-flood, so as to accommodate
the receding waters of Noah's flood. In the New American Standard Bible
the wording is "The waters were standing above the mountains. At Your
rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. The
mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You
established for them".
But how exactly would cooling magma cause the seabed to 'plunge' down
much lower in a short space of time?
I also note that this History Denier does not appear to want to
discuss the likely history of the iceberg, nor to speculate on how the
Ark (unlike Titanic, in different circumstances) managed to remain
afloat during a catastrophic WORLDWIDE flood - a flood which YECs
insist happened around a mere 4,300 years' ago.
Walker's blog also does not account for the persistence of the
Egyptian Old Kingdom beyond this date - before its demise after 2,200
BC, which has been discovered to have been caused by prolonged severe
DROUGHT stopping seasonal Nile floods during a periodic cold outbreak
over thousands of years known as a Bond Event.
Jesus apparently believed that the mythical recent worldwide flood was
a real event. He can be excused, however!



Bodie Hodge 20.4.12
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... mr-hostile
'Feedback: Mr Hostile'
A clumsy atheist scores an own goal by failing to give examples of the
problems with YEC-ism and the strengths of evolutionary theory that he
talks about, and by resorting to insults.
From Hodges' response:
"I don't understand why atheists don't seem to be embarrassed about
fellow evolutionists like Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot who killed
millions of kids and adults, or the maniac evolutionist Anders Behring
Breivik, who recently killed all those young kids in Norway?".
"Keep in mind that the last few genocidal, malevolent tyrants have
been evolutionists like Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot".
Hitler was no atheist. The sick but probably sane Breivik is not an
atheist either.
"I love science and have a Master's degree in it". Mr Hodge, you are a
Christian but you are also a hypocrite. I suggest that what Mr Hodge
claimes to 'love' is believing that the Bible is an INFALLIBLE guide to
both history and science, and thus rejecting or ignoring ALL the
scientific evidence that shows that Genesis and a 6,000 year old Earth
are both wrong. Thus Mr Hodge is either deluded, or else he is lying -
because he has secretly redefined 'science' to mean 'knowledge' without
specifying the source of the claimed knowledge.
I suggest if the universe and the Earth were both just 6,000 years'
old, we would see much faster continental drift suggesting recent
supercontinent break-up; none of the varied evidence pointing to long
periods of time when sea levels were much higher or much lower than
today eg raised beaches or undersea peat; only the Milky Way galaxy
visible in space; no supernovae whatsoever; only tiny polar icecaps; a
much faster speed of light possibly; millions of fossils and lots of
igneous rock layers all over the Earth that date as approximately 4,300
years' old by radiocarbon dating and other radiometric dating methods;
and all extra-terrestrial meteorites that have been dated dating as
less than 10,000 years' old. Or rather we WOULDN'T see these things
because there would probably be no life yet (thus the Earth would not
after all contain the masses of fossilised extinct and extant creatures
that have been seen by humanity).
Poor Bodie was also 'brainwashed' in the past - by 'public education',
or so he says. Then he apparently discovered the truth. Thus he is NOT
willing to "spend a few months to IMPARTIALLY research opposing
theories" as suggested by 'Mr Hostile'.
On 15.8.11 in an article on the AiG website entitled 'A catastrophic
missing link problem'
(See http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... nk-problem)
Hodge wrote: "These rock layers are real layers; it is the assignment of time
to them that is rather questionable. The majority of rock layers that
contain fossils are sedimentary rock layers from the Flood of Noah's
day about 4,350 years ago (by adding up genealogies from the Flood to
Christ, it is about 2,350 years, and Christ lived about 2,000 years
ago.). Of course, there are rock layers that have formed since the
Flood, due to local floods, volcanic eruptions, and so on. But most of
the layers in question formed in the Flood" and
"For example, Archaeopteryx and Sinosauropteryx are found in rock
layers associated with the Flood. So how old are they? They are about
4,350 years old. Dinosaurs are also found in rock layers from the
Flood, putting them around 4,350 years old too. Did one turn into the
other during the Flood? Not at all. They were fleeing from and finally
buried and fossilized in the Flood. In other words, they died at the
same time. Besides, birds (Day Five) were created before dinosaurs (Day
Six, being land animals). So birds were around prior to dinosaurs and
did not need to evolve from dinosaurs" and
"Furthermore, consider that Lucy and other australopithecines are
found in rock layers often associated with post-Flood rocks (e.g.,
volcanic layers erupted on top of Flood layers). How could such a thing
be the ancestor to humans (or a close relation to the ancestor of
humans) when humans, like Adam through Noah, already existed? As
Christians, we need to start thinking biblically. When you start with
the Bible, sensational finds of missing links are easy to refute. The
transitions don't exist because the alleged missing link fossils are
found in rock layers that were from the Flood or afterwards, which is
well after people and the animals in question already existed".
This man 'loves' science, he says. But it's very clear to me that he
wishes to undermine and if possible destroy (by non-scientific means)
ANY scientific knowledge that does not lend credence to a literal
Genesis. The diagrams in the article show the outcome resulting from
his tactics VERY clearly.

Some Bible-centred Christians hang on the very words of YEC 'expert'
Christians. These experts will apparently use any available tactic in
order to keep their 'pure' version of Christianity afloat in a
scientific age.

[a_haworthroberts]

Ken Ham has written on Facebook:
"Each Friday, AiG has a feature on its website called 'Friday Feedback.' I encourage to read yesterday's Friday Feedback as AiG's Bodie Hodge responds to a antagonistic opponent. All of us can learn from the way Bodie answered this person--so it is a great teaching lesson for us. You will also sbe reminded of how much those who hate God work so hard to 'suppress the truth.' I urge you to read it". Don't worry, Ken, I DID.

From Matthew 10:16 (KJV): "be ye therefore wise as serpents". (Except of course when it comes to Genesis 3:1 presumably - "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made".)

By the way, if a YEC is reading this, am I SUPPRESSING anything? Please tell me.

[a_haworthroberts]

There are now comments under the recent Tas Walker 'Titanic' blog. It hasn't 'sunk without trace'.

[a_haworthroberts]

I have just sent the following email to Tas Walker:


I have just submitted the following attempted comment under the blog.
However, it is NOT visible on my pc screen as 'awaiting moderation'. It
seems to have 'disappeared'.

Please will Mr Walker explain what has happened to my attempted
comment. I trust it will be moderated? Note that it is of somewhat
similar length to that of Andy Tompkin, already displayed.

"I agree with the comments by Andy Tompkin.
I also recently e mailed Mr Walker as follows: "When the Titanic collided with the iceberg, it set in train a sequence of events that continued for more than two hours until the ship reached a new equilibrium on the ocean bottom. This process can be used as an illustration of the catastrophe of Noah's Flood, which engulfed our globe.
The Flood began, according to the Bible with a breaking up of the fountains of the great deep, and the opening of the windows of heaven (Genesis 7:11). The Flood involved a train of events that followed a logical sequence of cause and effect, until the earth reached a new equilibrium. Because the earth is so much larger than the Titanic, the catastrophe of the Flood took much longer to unfold. The Bible records it lasted for just over 12 months. Ongoing climatic effects continued for hundreds of years.
During Noah's Flood, vast quantities water moved over the surface of the earth, eroding the landscape and depositing sediment in enormous sedimentary basins. This redistribution of mass caused movement of the earth's plates. This in turn generated huge volumes of molten magma, the movement of which further redistributed mass on the globe - laterally and radially. The cooling of the magma also affected the movement of plates and ocean levels. Through the process some parts of
the earth's crust gradually sank lower and others rose, until the earth eventually reached a new equilibrium, which we enjoy today.
Geological history is often presented as a list of disconnected events. We read about sedimentation, erosion, mountain building, volcanic eruptions, and ice ages, each separated from the other by tens of millions of years. With so much time between events they seem to be unrelated. However, by looking at geology as the unfolding of one huge catastrophe that overtook our globe, we can begin to connect the dots."
Yes, FALLACIOUSLY join the jots - and thus COMPRESS the planet's real history to fit with Bible genealogies. Incidentally YECs believe - from how Psalm 104 is translated in SOME versions of the Bible - that the depth of the oceans increased greatly post-flood, so as to accommodate the receding waters of Noah's flood. In the New American Standard Bible the wording is "The waters were standing above the mountains. At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them".
But how exactly would cooling magma cause the seabed to 'plunge' down much lower in a short space of time?
I also note that this History Denier does not appear to want to discuss the likely history of the iceberg, nor to speculate on how the Ark (unlike Titanic, in different circumstances) managed to remain afloat during a catastrophic WORLDWIDE flood - a flood which YECs insist happened around a mere 4,300 years' ago.
Walker's blog also does not account for the persistence of the Egyptian Old Kingdom beyond this date - before its demise after 2,200 BC, which has been discovered to have been caused by prolonged severe DROUGHT stopping seasonal Nile floods during a periodic cold outbreak over thousands of years known as a Bond Event.
Jesus apparently believed that the mythical recent worldwide flood was a real event. He can be excused, however!"".

[a_haworthroberts]

I'm pasting in the Tompkin comment here, as I can then see better how much longer than his my attempted comments probably are. In addition, his comments are sensible.

"This is a ridiculous article. There is not one credible statement that is backed up with a reference to any reputable source other than the bible (with the possible exception on the manner in which the Titanic sank). Not one of the Apostles or those attributed with the writing of the bible claim to be skilled in geology or personally had knowledge of the great flood as clearly can be seen in the construct of this author’s argument. If people want to be taken seriously when producing articles of this nature it would help if they actually did some research before putting pen to paper instead of trying to preach to the masses from their soap box.
Point one. No global flooding event as described in this article has yet or is likely to be proven during the theorised period in time of the great flood or for that matter within any period while mankind has walked this earth. Have global flooding events occurred in earth’s history? Yes but I stress the point, not as described in this article. No mass infill of sedimentary basins over a one year period, and most definitely no mass tectonic shift of the scale suggested over the time span indicated. There have been massive volcanic events as described throughout earth’s history but not one of these events has occurred in 100’s of thousands of years and most are not 1 year events. I recommend the author try reading a nice simple book like “Introduction to geology” before attempting to write a similar article in the future.
There is a reason scientists believe the geological processes commented in this article span millennia rather than 1 year and that is because it is physically not possible for it to be other. If God has made the earth and heavens as prescribed within the bible then, God also made every atom and molecule and created the laws that govern how they behave and interact. While we can only speculate on the true history of the earth, we CAN measure and record and observe. This is why I can say as do all geological scientists that the events prescribed in this article cannot occur in a 1 year period, or 1 life time or in 100 years or even 10’s of thousands of years. The Earth’s history is an order of magnitude larger than that. No person should put their own diminished concept of time in place of the truth.
Try going back to the basics and teaching faith rather than this crooked excuse for scientifically justified religion. There is no reason on god’s earth that science and religion can’t co-exist so long as one does not try to pervert the other".

[a_haworthroberts]

My latest cc'd email to Mr Tas Walker:




I am today reminded of a recent email exchange with the now silent Tas
Walker.

He sent ME an email with links to some of his recent blogs, including
the one about Titanic.

I replied saying: "I see that either nobody has commented on your
recent blogs, or (if
they attempted to like myself on the Titanic piece), the comment was
not approved".

Tas then replied: "It takes me a while to attend to the comments. I
thought the last few
comments of yours were too long and too aggressive".

I then replied: "The comment I submitted simply said 'Another low for
Young Earth
Creationism'. You may have thought that 'aggressive'.
The other comments were a DETAILED analysis sent by email, copied to
others, and actually they were was not intended as something to be
displayed under your blog. I note that your reply below fails to
address the issue of the 'history denial' that your post about
Titanic
revealed".

However, on 30 April I submitted my lengthier comment TO THE BLOG for
moderation. Because I saw the published comment from Andy Tompkin which
is lengthy and appears no more 'aggressive' than my attempted comment.

It would nevertheless appear that my would-be comment has now been
rejected from the blog, despite Tas failing to inform me of the fact.
Thus scientific questions are being censored.

Worse still, my comment vanished into some kind of 'black hole' as
soon as I submitted it and was NOT visible on my screen as 'awaiting
moderation'. Why not?

Is this a glitch or have I been banned from posting under his blogs -
without even being informed (and for no obvious rational reason)?

That would seem a strange way to behave, given that Tas sent me an
email on 26 April linking to his recent blogs and saying "Hello to you,
I hope you may find some of these recent articles about geology,
documentaries, landscapes and Noah?s Flood interesting.
## The Titanic illustrates Noah's flood
http://biblicalgeology.net/blog/titanic ... ahs-flood/".

[a_haworthroberts]

Tas Walker has now published my comment and a response.

I have just attempted to make a further response - as below:
"Tas
What you cut out (which I have NO problem with) was me quoting text from YOUR blog.
In your reply you appear to be alluding to (non-biblical) subduction processes - when oceanic plates meet continental plates. Or possibly to mid-oceanic zones from which basaltic magma erupts and from which two separate tectonic plates diverge in opposite directions. I'm not aware that these plate movements - even at the slow speeds that are found in nature (and in no way contradicted by scripture) - are causing a slow and long-term increase in the depth of any major oceanic trenches.
I'm no Egyptologist but have looked at the 'timing is everything' link. I have also seen the Abstract of a 2003 peer-reviewed paper 'Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence'. The Abstract states: "Strontium isotopic and petrologic information, obtained from sediment cores collected in the Nile delta of Egypt, indicate that paleoclimatic and Nile baseflow conditions changed considerably from about 4200 to 4000 cal yr B.P. in the Nile basin. Our study records a higher proportion of White Nile sediment transported during the annual floods at ca. 6100 cal yr B.P. than towards 4200 cal yr B.P., at which time suspended sediment from the Blue Nile formed a significantly larger fraction of the total load. This resulted from a decrease in vegetative cover and an increase in erosion rate accompanying the marked decline in rainfall. These new geoscience data indicate major changes in annual flooding and baseflow of the river Nile, marked short-term paleoclimatic-related events that may in part have led to the collapse of the Old Kingdom".
Ashley".

I do not KNOW whether the attempted comment was received. It is NOT visible on-screen as 'awaiting moderation'. The reason for my doubts is that in between me filling in the correct answer to a maths sum for 'spam protection' and submitting my comment the sum in question CHANGED. When I realised this I altered my answer accordingly and then attempted a SECOND time to submit my further comment.

[a_haworthroberts]

Tas Walker is also blogging enthusiastically today about a (LENGTHY and presumably non-peer reviewed) new article on the CMI website by one Peter Scheele. I quote:
"In December 2010, Peter Scheele from the Netherlands published an excellent paper in Journal of Creation on the carving of the Grand Canyon. It’s now available at creation.com (also as pdf).
Scheele shows in graphic detail that the Grand Canyon was formed while the waters of Noah’s Flood receded from the American continent, when they temporarily ponded over a large plateau in the south-west. As this receding water flowed from east to west, the Grand Canyon was mainly carved out in the opposite direction, from west to east.
This receding-Flood scenario explains many of the unique and puzzling features of the Grand Canyon, such as its location through the top of a ridge, its branching structure, its numerous major and minor side canyons, its meandering and the presence of multiple ‘outflow points’ in its terminal escarpment".

HERE is Scheele's 'CV' from a (translated!) Wikipedia page:
"Peter Scheele (Arnhem , 7 July 1962 ) is a Dutch television program maker, evangelist and writer of Christian books. He also creationist works published. Scheele was born into a family of three children and grew up in Deventer. His father was a doctor and his mother a nurse. He studied two years of electrical engineering at the Technical University Eindhoven , and then spent six years theology on HBO - level at the Bible Institute in Belgium Heverlee (which was later merged into the Evangelical Theological Faculty of Louvain ), Belgium. In the same period (from 1985 to 1988) he was leader of a commune and from 1986 to 1990 leader of a snack of Youth for Christ in Eindhoven. He founded in 1986, the Jesus-fanklub (later: Jesus fan club), who seeks the gospel in a creative way to bring the man. He became famous especially with about five minutes EO program Peter , where he also people in a somewhat playful way with the gospel tried to bring. Then came the (longer) programs Peter: Friends, interactive and bus stop, which corresponded to Peter. In 2004 he became involved in course Why Jesus? Of the EO. In 2005 he became ambassador for World Vision, an organization for development. Scheele acts as a speaker. He spoke several times at the EO Youth Day. On the Xnoizz Flevo Festival in 2009 he went as a creationist in debate with Cees Dekker, a famous theistic evolutionist."

[a_haworthroberts]

http://www.creation.com/time-no-friend-of-evolution
Note the rather interesting set of footnotes under this propaganda piece.

If ALL we are seeing (and not seeing over long timescales) is 'downhill' changes, how do YECs explain the massive diversity of terrestrial species - both extant and extinct - that have lived on Earth during its existence (a period deemed by YECs to be only around 4,300 since Noah's Flood)?

This man thinks he is an evolution myth buster. He USED to be a scientist.

Catchpoole and Sanford should try submitting their findings to a peer-reviewed science journal. Everyone has a right to know - NOT just Christians attending fundamentalist churches.

I won't comment on "This is bad news—like the Titanic, we’re going down, down, down; not ‘evolving up, up, up’".

How does this square with the YEC argument that if evolution was true why has there been stasis in species such as sharks and crocodiles (6,000/4,300 years' isn't long and surely the entropy should be affecting sharks and land-based crocodiles too - because of God's Curse in Genesis)?

My emails to qa@creation.info are now being blocked (I receive 'undelivered' messages). So I'll submit the gist of this from within their website.