The stupidity of the American right has no limits

[Roger Stanyard]

The IRA were evil bastards but they were a response to genuine injustice and discrimination

No Cathy.

The Civil Rights movement was a response to genuine injustice and descrimination, not the provisional IRA. The injustices applied across the religious divide. For example, the one man one vote campaign benefited both Unionist and Nationalist There was no justification for the IRA campaign, none. By the mid 1980's virtually all the demands for civil rights had been met.

I agree with you on that one, Peter, and the evidence seems to me very simple. They lost.

But the game had been up for generations. Whatever one criticises the Republic of Ireland for, it broke the power of the IRA in the Irish civil war. It had to.

Sinn Fein and the IRA simply did not grasp in the early eighties that it couldn't gain power by a combination of both the ballot box and the Armalite. It was either one, or the other. They were mutually exclusive. That it chose both was a sign of desperate failure even then. It had already lost the "war". It was also hopelessly out of touch with political reality in Europe. Both Ireland and the UK had become EU (then EC) members and that was conditional on them both being democracies - solving political conflicts by the ballot box, negotiation and debate, not by the gun.

[Roger Stanyard]

He may well have done. But it was Paisleys hatred for all catholics rather than concern about abuses of catholic children that motivated that I'd guess. Paisley saying something about catholic abuses is more like a member of the BNP pointing to honour killings or FGM or the burkha. The agenda is to increase division rather than genuine concern for the fate of catholic children. And the fact he was so hated probably didn't help at all.

The catholic church has behaved appallingly and still is, Brady is vile for not acting and should be sacked. That does not make all catholics sub human.

What I'm wondering is how long will it be before creationist loons rush in to fill the vacuum left by the catholic church in the Republic? Catholics are leaving it in disgust but there is little there to replace it. I reckon they'll see a market soon.

My understanding is that Ireland has a particular strain of deeply reactionary Catholicism reflecting the enormous French influence on the RC church there after the French Revolution. There was a big influx of French priests into Ireland and they loathed anything "progressive". Heck, the revolutionaries in French were executing them and confiscating their property and livings. They were very, very determined to hang on to their position in Ireland.

Moreover, Maynooth is not seen as one of the world's top Catholic seminaries as a result, despite being the only one in Ireland.

I always thought one of the most disgusting pieces of RC interference in politics in Ireland was Douglas Hyde's funeral. It banned Catholic politicians from attending it as he was Protestant, yet he was the first President of the country. The message was clear, he was not a proper Irishman and Protestants had no political legitimacy. Damn it, he was a very great Irishman, as were other leading Protestant Irish nationalists.

The last time I looked, probably about 4 years ago, the fastest (and only) growing denomination in Ireland was the Anglican Church of Ireland and that growth was almost entirely in Dublin. Why this should have been so, I don't know.

[Roger Stanyard]

You see Mcguiness and Adams rightly as murderers but the catholics see Paisley as just as evil and as the reason the IRA and the troubles ignited there in the first place. He is seen as the reason they existed, he was complicit in firing up the hatred and discrimination that undoubtedly started the whole thing off and therefore he has just has much blood on his hands.

The troubles started in earnest and the first real growth in support for the IRA grew out of Unionist attacks on civil rights and civil rights marches not IRA marches for a united Ireland. And then there was bloody Sunday! And the reason the British Army was there in the first place was because of those unionist attacks by Paisleys pals on civil rights marchers concerned about infair allocation of council housing, jobs, voting rights, gerrymandering etc - not a catholic Ireland particularly just parity with their protestant neighbours. And as the RUC was far from a neutral police force when it came to protecting catholics - the IRA saw a way to step in with its ideology.

......

So it is difficult to find any innocents in Northern Irelands politicians.

About the only thing I've ever agreed with Martin McGuiness was his widely publicised comment a few years back that all sides in the troubles walked away without clean hands (or worlds to that effect).

In one sense the entire set up in Ireland is bizarre. From a geographer's perspective, the real divide on the island of Ireland isn't its wholly contrived border but between a populated strip along the east cost stretching from Belfast to Dublin and a rural, largely agricultural and sparsely populated hinterland. It is a hard fact of life that the rural world is, by and large, conservative, inward and backward looking in comparison with big cities. (See Cities in Civilisation by Peter Hall to get the point.)

I suppose though, it's actually more nuanced in that Belfast and its surrounding area is (or rather was) arguably part of the economic hinterland of the west central lowlands of Scotland. It's ship building industry largely developed as an outpost of ship building on the Clyde. There were strong financial, managerial and engineering links between the two. Both, incidentally, had lost the plot by the start of WW1 - outdated and poor engineering skills, a lack of effective innovation and over reliance on defence contracts.

[cathy]

My understanding is that Ireland has a particular strain of deeply reactionary Catholicism reflecting the enormous French influence on the RC church there after the French Revolution.

Or possibly due to the fact the British were there, were unpopular and catholicism reflected Irishness and rebellion and a rallying point? Its interesting that the doses of propaganda I was fed never mentioned protestant Irish nationalists.

Two Hindu friends told me, totally independent of each other and years apart, that it was the British empire that encouraged and nurtured the growth of Islam in India from a minority religion. They saw religious division as a way to rule, they had Sikh and Hinduism but encouraging Islam gave them an extra, divide and rule string to their bow. So ruling by religious divisions doesn't seem to be that new. And the fact we have Pakistan shows just how sucessful that was as a divisive strategy. My colleague says his dad still remembers giving up everything to move south after India divided.

Barbara Castle also illustrated a problem in her memoirs. During the 1960s (before the troubles) the issue of discrimination and gerrymandering in NI came before the cabinet. She was warned in no uncertain terms not to pursue the matter because the province was a violent political viper's nest which British (mainland) politicians best avoid getting involved in at all, no matter what was going on.

And had they actually bothered to do something then, the whole thing may not have happened. Or happened with the ferocity that it did. Before bloody sunday IRA was starting to stand for I ran away. It was after that it started to gain popular support. Maybe even a proper enquiry then, or one perceived to be fair might have stopped it all.

No side is blameless, thousands of innocent people got caught up in the middle, but the guilty were on both sides of the divide. But it is history and best left as history.

[Roger Stanyard]

Or possibly due to the fact the British were there, were unpopular and catholicism reflected Irishness and rebellion and a rallying point? Its interesting that the doses of propaganda I was fed never mentioned protestant Irish nationalists.

My understanding of Irish history was that the RC church there was basically exceedingly hostile to revolutionary Irish nationalism. It was the establishment there (Maynooth got government subsidies from the 19th century) and had much to lose. Others here no doubt will present a different picture but the stunning irony of the troubles from 1969 is that Paisley acted just like what he considered to be "Popery" - he was a priest interfering morning noon and night in politics, exploiting the troubles for his own ends, setting up his own political party as an arm of his church and was dangerously close to violent paramilitaries. I recall his threat of violence to the British government all too clearly; row after row of hooded goons lined up waving fire ams licences.

Perhaps there should be another word for such people from Northern Ireland, Britmix (a combination of British and Irish - Micks). He may be British by nationality but English he ain't.

[Peter Henderson]

The closest analogy to Northern Ireland is Belgium, or perhaps Cyprus, not the USA or South Africe.

You are not comparing like for like.

[Peter Henderson]

Perhaps there should be another word for such people from Northern Ireland

There really isn't any need.

Northern Protetestants generally refer to themselves as the Northern Irish, or more commonly as Ulstermen (or women).

Ulster Scots are quite different to the native Irish, from a cultural point of view.

[Roger Stanyard]

Perhaps there should be another word for such people from Northern Ireland

There really isn't any need.

Northern Protetestants generally refer to themselves as the Northern Irish, or more commonly as Ulstermen (or women).

Ulster Scots are quite different to the native Irish, from a cultural point of view.

I guess that this really goes back to the aftermath of the "English" Civil War where core to the conflict was religious. Basically the eventual "settlement" centred on keeping both the Calvinists and the Catholics out of power and influence in England (Scotland was still an independent state). Hence the English have a very different perspective of Northern Ireland than do people of both sides who live there.

If you look back at the history of the Labour Party on the mainland of the UK it was very much a deliberate fusion of working class Protestants and Catholics (read people of Irish origin). yes, the Irish are very different culturally wise (or were, I should say) but not that different. The English tend to get on with them very well. Perhaps the English appreciated the strong sense of irony of the Irish.

[cathy]

Northern Protetestants generally refer to themselves as the Northern Irish, or more commonly as Ulstermen (or women).

Ulster Scots are quite different to the native Irish, from a cultural point of view.

[/quote]It surprises me a lot that there are still cultural difference, or large enough cultural differences to note. I would have thought/hoped that culturally by now, there should be far more similarities between the native catholic Irish and protestant Scots? You've existed together for far longer than you have apart? Culturally where there is no segregation don't peoples children become more mixed and more like the place they live then the place their parents/grandparents hail from? If everyone is not referring to themselves by the same terms that is a problem. You should not have faith schools over there in that case. It is very different to here, where religion is not that big an issue.

Apart from maybe food and folk songs and holidays - though I'm not sure the Irish made much of a contribution to world cuisine. Not a lot you can do with the potato and bacon.

yes, the Irish are very different culturally wise (or were, I should say) but not that different. The English tend to get on with them very well. Perhaps the English appreciated the strong sense of irony of the Irish.

Culturally now, those of Irish descent are English. They were never actually that separate were they? The jokes and nastiness probably died out cos most people became mixed anyway and couldn't actually see the differences, most people can probably find at least one relative whose recent roots can be traced back to Ireland. If the troubles flared up again, I'm not sure how generic any anti Irish sentiment would be any more.

Thats cos there wasn't any significant or real segregation - even with catholic schools where a lot of the parents were Irish we weren't segregated outside school. And it is difficult to stop kids sharing the same overall culture as their friends - which will largely be the culture they live in. And that isn't that different from the culture of Ireland any more. And beyond religion I'm not sure it ever was.

[Roger Stanyard]

Apart from maybe food and folk songs and holidays - though I'm not sure the Irish made much of a contribution to world cuisine. Not a lot you can do with the potato and bacon.

Definition of Irish cuisine:

1. Boil the hell out of it,

2. Add potatoes

3. See also poteen, famine

[Roger Stanyard]

Culturally now, those of Irish descent are English. They were never actually that separate were they? The jokes and nastiness probably died out cos most people became mixed anyway and couldn't actually see the differences, most people can probably find at least one relative whose recent roots can be traced back to Ireland. If the troubles flared up again, I'm not sure how generic any anti Irish sentiment would be any more.

Thats cos there wasn't any significant or real segregation - even with catholic schools where a lot of the parents were Irish we weren't segregated outside school. And it is difficult to stop kids sharing the same overall culture as their friends - which will largely be the culture they live in. And that isn't that different from the culture of Ireland any more. And beyond religion I'm not sure it ever was.

Certainly in the world I was brought up in there was no segregation at all, not even remotely. Yes, there were cultural differences between those that had actually emigrated from Ireland and the English but Ireland was still very much a rural agricultural society and few English had any connection with the land whatsoever. The first time I went to Ireland I was shocked just how poverty stricken the countryside was. There was also the extended families but given the size of my Dad's family it wasn't something I particularly found "different". But Ireland changed during the 1970s and 1980s anyway.

The only big divide I recall was the unwritten rule not to discuss politics with Irish people. They really did see things differently and it could rapidly get very heated. The issues were not really the troubles but a very different interpretation of history. I also have to say the Irish were a lot more knowlegable about the UK than the English about Ireland.

Also we got copious amounts of "Holy Water" (poteen) from our Irish friends.

[cathy]

The only big divide I recall was the unwritten rule not to discuss politics with Irish people. They really did see things differently and it could rapidly get very heated. The issues were not really the troubles but a very different interpretation of history. I also have to say the Irish were a lot more knowlegable about the UK than the English about Ireland.

No that was just our tendency to take ancient history personally I think. We had teachers still getting genuinely worked up about William of Orange whereas you'd all forgotten the wrongs done by Ceasar and his rampaging Roman hoards. We used to got on history trips to old houses just to hear about priest hidey holes History is taught far more neutrally now tho and the troubles did widely feature in a lot of the gcse history exams a few years ago, tho not so much now.

[a_haworthroberts]

Apart from maybe food and folk songs and holidays - though I'm not sure the Irish made much of a contribution to world cuisine. Not a lot you can do with the potato and bacon.

Definition of Irish cuisine:

1. Boil the hell out of it,

2. Add potatoes

3. See also poteen, famine

Did you know that the Irish Meteorological Service still issues Blight Warnings?

[Roger Stanyard]

Did you know that the Irish Meteorological Service still issues Blight Warnings?

And, no doubt, Sinn Fein still issues Blighty Warnings.

[Roger Stanyard]

The only big divide I recall was the unwritten rule not to discuss politics with Irish people. They really did see things differently and it could rapidly get very heated. The issues were not really the troubles but a very different interpretation of history. I also have to say the Irish were a lot more knowlegable about the UK than the English about Ireland.

No that was just our tendency to take ancient history personally I think.

There's still a grudge factor in England about what happened in October 1066!

Best blame everything on the French, obviously.