New Visitors Centre

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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Dagsannr » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:08 pm

It's when we get issues like this that makes me proud to be living in a part of the world where public organisations understand, listen to and accept the scientific evidence and don't pander to single-issue fundamentalist groups.

From the National Trust, to the BBC, to the (majority of those in) government - science is listened to and the rationalist voices usually win out. Evolution is taught in schools, homeopathy is denigrated for the scam that it is and all the other woo out there is fairly treated in the way it should be (a classic example is Dara and Brian's comment about astrology a few years ago on the BBC and the dismissal of the complaints).

Far better than in the USA, which is increasingly threatened by the theocratic ideals of a vocal minority, despite the best efforts of the courts, NCSE and truely astounding individuals like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Adam Savage and James Randi.
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Malcolm Stein wrote:BREAKING... Updated transcript from the audio at the Visitor's Centre at the Giant's Causeway!

"Today there is a clear understanding among scientists that the heat of the earth was the driving force behind the formation of the Giant’s Causeway - and that the earth is far older than had previously been thought. James Hutton suggested this back in 1785; modern geologists agree with him.

All the scientific evidence points to a volcanic origin for the columns of the Giant’s Causeway, around 60 million years ago.

However, not everyone agrees with the scientific view. There are some people who believe – often for religious reasons – that the earth was formed more recently: thousands of years ago rather than billions.

The National Trust supports the scientific view of the formation of the Giant’s Causeway. We are proud to be the guardians of such a special place - one that has played an important role in our understanding of the world around us.
For further information on this exhibit, please speak to a Ranger."

from:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/servlet/file/store5/item981488/version1/GC.pdf

My only issue is the use of "often" in "often for religious reasons". I'm not aware of any other.

Nevertheless and no doubt Caleb, AiG, Ham and CMI will cry censorship while continuing to scrub from their blogs and facebook pages any traces of criticism of their dogma, no matter how expressed.


Why are these people even being acknowledged at all ??????

They should have been ignored in the first place.

That a small group of people reject science for religious reasons is neither here nor there.
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby cathy » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:36 pm

Why are these people even being acknowledged at all ??????

They should have been ignored in the first place.

That a small group of people reject science for religious reasons is neither here nor there.
I'm with you 100% there. Why on earth were they listened to in the first place. Why is the stuff still there AT ALL! and why 'often' - not always.

They have contributed nothing to the current science, and nothing to the earlier science as creationists weren't around and as soon as folk looking for scientific evidence for genesis had looked they rejected it.

If this were Down House perhaps a mention of early issues in 1859, but not at the giants causeway!!!. The NT is not a political or religious organisation. It bowed to pressure from both in a region where both are an issue. They're not mentioned in any other museum of science as far as I'm aware, tho now they can still point to this as a precedent.

And if some people believe the earth is 6000 years old cos they are wilfully ignorant (beyond stupid) then why not some people believe it is made of pasta. Last year I went to the riveting electricity museum in Hampshire, nowhere did it say that some people believed electricity was not a flow of electrons but secret messages from aliens. I do believe that is a common misconception for some psychotics yet it was not mentioned. So why give creationists special treatment.

AT the end of the day 'often' is the best we can hope for. But they should never have been given houseroom at all. I hope the NT don't own any suffragettes house or we can look forward to maybe a coaltion between the taliban and Caleb saying not all people believe women are capable of voting due to religious reasons. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:21 pm

Dagsannr wrote:It's when we get issues like this that makes me proud to be living in a part of the world where public organisations understand, listen to and accept the scientific evidence and don't pander to single-issue fundamentalist groups.

From the National Trust, to the BBC, to the (majority of those in) government - science is listened to and the rationalist voices usually win out. Evolution is taught in schools, homeopathy is denigrated for the scam that it is and all the other woo out there is fairly treated in the way it should be (a classic example is Dara and Brian's comment about astrology a few years ago on the BBC and the dismissal of the complaints).

Far better than in the USA, which is increasingly threatened by the theocratic ideals of a vocal minority, despite the best efforts of the courts, NCSE and truely astounding individuals like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Adam Savage and James Randi.


It's a big slap in the face for the Caleb Foundation, I'm pleased to so.

When we first started the BCSE there was a debate about whether we should bother about Northern Ireland. Those that thought we shouldn't took the view that it was too small a place to bother with and we should concentrate our efforts and limited on the much bigger mainland. It was a very valid position, particularly as we didn't know much about the creationist movement there.

I argued against it, basically from a position of intuition. Ireland (all of it) has long had centre stage in British history and my guess was that Northern Ireland would have a major role in the British creationist movement. That's why I did a lot of research on the likes of the Caleb Foundation - I saw the danger long before it became apparent to the public.
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:00 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19814284
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/ ... -1-4328282
http://www.u.tv/News/Trust-amends-creat ... 4c7ad207f7

Well, it was worth waiting almost three months for.

Personally I was not getting worked up about the previous wording, but I think this is an improvement. If I understand correctly, the words "the debate continues today" (which could have been misleading in implying it was a scientific debate) have been removed.

I see there are two other threads - about to take a look.
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:17 pm

Of course, the YECs don't dispute a 'volcanic origin' for the Causeway stones (though they pretend this was supervolcanism triggered by or triggering Noah's Flood).
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:02 pm

and my guess was that Northern Ireland would have a major role in the British creationist movement. That's why I did a lot of research on the likes of the Caleb Foundation - I saw the danger long before it became apparent to the public
.

However, much of what has happened here has been due ton the activity of mainland YECs, not local ones (until quite recently), and largely through the activity of AiG (UK), and more laterally CMI (along with John MacKay).

Caleb has simply picked up on what was happening throughout evangelical circles in the province. It's only really been a problem since the late 1990's in churches here.

I would suspect that is probably true of evangelical churches on the mainland as well.
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby cathy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:13 am

However, much of what has happened here has been due ton the activity of mainland YECs, not local ones (until quite recently), and largely through the activity of AiG (UK), and more laterally CMI (along with John MacKay).

Caleb has simply picked up on what was happening throughout evangelical circles in the province. It's only really been a problem since the late 1990's in churches here.

I would suspect that is probably true of evangelical churches on the mainland as well.

Can't speak for the province but it didn't enter my consciousness at all until about 2008. When in halls of residence I shared with a very religious person - think a seventh day adventist. She never mentioned it at all.

My impression is a hard core have been slowly spreading it for years (DT sobbing Sylv, McIntosh) and have suddenly discovered the internet and got radical. All the same there seems to be a lack of teenagers and youngsters coming thru the ranks. Tho Marcs loony Pastor looks to have latched on to the happy hunting grounds of the impoverished and poorly educated - ignoring the middle classes or more educated thinkers. Thats the impression from his blog - go into housing estates for the disadvanataged and exploit their situation by proselytising and converting rather than helping unconditionally. And that is I guess what they all dol.
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Answers in Genesis repeating their lies

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:09 pm

I've sent them this message from within their website - and received an automatic acknowledgement.


"
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... e-10062012 (item 2)
"The millions-of-years contention comes from a worldview-based belief that denies the record of the global Flood as recorded in biblical history."

Actually it comes from consistent observable and measurable evidence.

"At the heart of the mainstream belief is the uniformitarian assumption that slow gradual geologic processes over millions of years have produced all that we see today."

Untrue. Have you bothered to do your homework on what conventional geologists believe the evidence points to? Your clumsy claim that they deny all catastrophic events, including some that were regional in scale, is a lie. It is anti-scientific propaganda.

"Nevertheless, the Flood model of geology—which has not been depicted at the Visitor Centre despite angry rumours to the contrary...". Rumours which the YEC Caleb Foundation must take the blame for:
http://www.calebfoundation.org/page16.htm (see the statement dated 3 July)

As I have told you at least once before - on 24 September. I quote [the post is on this community forum, dated 25 Sept UK time]:
""Secularists and the media were claiming that the National Trust had allowed creationists to have their explanation of the Giant’s Causeway included in the exhibition..."
I think the mistake by the media and 'secularists' was a sincere and understandable one. After all, on 3 July the YEC Caleb Foundation wrote on their website that the National Trust's new visitor centre "includes an acknowledgement both of the legitimacy of the creationist position on the origins of the unique Causeway stones and of the ongoing debate around this". This rather exaggerated the situation! http://www.calebfoundation.org/page16.htm
Have you done your homework?"

IF YOU ARE BINNING MY EMAILS (AND IGNORING MY MESSAGES SENT FROM WITHIN YOUR WEBSITE) I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT YOU SHOULD INSTEAD READ THEM. IT MIGHT STOP YOU REPEATING SILLY ERRORS ABOUT EVENTS IN THE UK IN PARTICULAR.

Unless of course you have a deliberate policy of posting untruths in the name of Christ?

Please also read THIS: http://answersingenes.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... onist.html (see the comments underneath too)

Why do you keep lying?!

It suggests that your position is indefensible (and that you - collectively - behave hypocritically).

"And now the Causeway’s history includes the official creation of a fiction: the fiction that science has settled the question of its age, the fiction that all the scientific evidence points back 60 million years, the fiction that the one and only scientific view is the millions-and-billions view—all other views being unscientific".

Since a worldwide flood never happened around 2,300 BC, I agree with the view that the scientific debate about the approximate time of the present formation's origin IS settled.

I hope YECs aren't considering vandalising the signage in Northern Ireland - as I gather has happened elsewhere."
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New Visitors Centre - more is revealed

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:43 pm

It's now apparent that there was an attempt to make promoting creationism a condition of funding for the Visitors' Centre. Although the NT is said to have refused, it's obvious that some underhand accommodation must have taken place. Details of this long-withheld FoI response, and long-sustained creationist pressure, here: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/documents-cast-light-on-causeway-creationist-wrangle-1-4374897
(Thanks to Paul on RatSkep.)
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Re: New Visitors Centre - more is revealed

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:56 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:It's now apparent that there was an attempt to make promoting creationism a condition of funding for the Visitors' Centre. Although the NT is said to have refused, it's obvious that some underhand accommodation must have taken place. Details of this long-withheld FoI response, and long-sustained creationist pressure, here: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/documents-cast-light-on-causeway-creationist-wrangle-1-4374897
(Thanks to Paul on RatSkep.)


It stinks. Basically the creationists are in a position to blackmail the whole of Northern Ireland. Public money is conditional on presenting their sectarian viewpoint. So they've got everyone by the short and curlies - museums, schools, universities.

The News Letter article makes mention of the "Causeway Creation Committee". We know about the Causeway Creation Campaign but this seems to be a new group. Who is in it?
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:12 pm

We know about the Causeway Creation Campaign but this seems to be a new group. Who is in it?


This is nothing new Roger.

If I remember correctly, Stephen Moore, who fronted the Causway Creation Campaign, boasted he had a committee but wouldn't reveral who was on it, though I'll bet it's the usual names who are involved in creationism in NI.

The Ulster Museum will be their next target (see C.O.M.'s petition). I wonder if similar pressure is being applied ?
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:20 pm

Keep an eye on developments re, the Ulster museum:

http://www.creationoutreachministries.com/com/

12/7/12 - A formal reply has been recieved from the Ulster Museum in response to the petition. Creation Outreach Ministries will publish the details of the letter shortly.

5/4/12 – The petition has been formally submitted to the Ulster Musuem with more than 11,000 signatures. Please pray for the Board of Trustees of the Musuem as they consider and reflect upon the Petition. Thank you to everyone who signed the petition.

1/2/12 – Creation Outreach Ministries has drawn its petition to the Ulster Museum to a close on 31/1/12. COM are now working on the best way and time to present the petition to the museum. Please pray for this upcoming event. More news regarding the petition will be posted shortly.


Creation Outreach Ministries appears to be heavily connected with C.M.I. and the Caleb Foundation (the same names cropping up in both)
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:21 pm

Ukantic has posted more on News&Links, where SluggerOToole digs into the implications of the latest FoI revelation.http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/16/creationism-to-be-included-in-the-giantscauseway-exhibition-as-a-grant-condition/ I'll post a link to here from N&I
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Re: New Visitors Centre

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:08 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:Ukantic has posted more on News&Links, where SluggerOToole digs into the implications of the latest FoI revelation.http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/16/creationism-to-be-included-in-the-giantscauseway-exhibition-as-a-grant-condition/ I'll post a link to here from N&I

One also wonders exactly what the involvement of Answers in Genesis and Creation Ministries International are in this corrupt and rotten scam.
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