Two more creationist free schools approved

All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:24 pm

marcsurtees wrote:So would I be right to assume that philosophy of science is part of the curriculum?
Were it taught as a specific part of science education, I'm sure it would be history and philosophy of science. With emphasis on the history - no good having postmodernist sociologists like Fuller butting in. Not that he did the ID brigade any good. :D
Edit: oops, Fuller!
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:57 pm

Not sure I've heard of Fowler, Brian. I've heard of Fuller (two Fullers in fact - Steve and also Nick)!
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:18 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:Not sure I've heard of Fowler, Brian. I've heard of Fuller (two Fullers in fact - Steve and also Nick)!
Thanks Ashley - Steve Fuller it was. :oops:
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:50 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:"Why should such debates be confined (or perhaps relegated) to Religious Education (RE) lessons and assemblies?" (as quoted by Cathy above)

Because they aren't scientific questions but religious or philosophical ones.

So would I be right to assume that philosophy of science is part of the curriculum?


RE teachers are not qualified to teach the philosophy of science; it's a complex and demanding piece of philosophy which demands specialist knowledge and has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever it is you claim to be your religion.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 pm

dannyno wrote:Grindon Hall.

The current headteacher, Christopher Gray, is the son of the founder and first headteacher of the school, Elizabeth Gray. It started out as Fulwell Grange Christian School before moving to Grindon Hall.

It was Elizabeth Gray who only abandoned corporal punishment when it was finally made illegal in private schools in 1999. She told the Newcastle Journal on Jan 13 2000 that corporal punishment was "Biblical".

I haven't seen anyone else notice that one of the directors of Grindon Hall is John Burn, of the Christian Institute and close to the Vardys (he was headteacher at Emmanuel College, Gateshead). He's been involved in Grindon Hall/Fulwell Grange for many years- I found interviews with him and Elizabeth Gray dating back to 2000 where he was saying he'd been a supporter for "many years".


Thanks Dan. This is really appreciated. So we see the same old names in the creationist mafia emerging, yet again, from the woodwork. Burn is, of course, politically well connected. We should be worried.

(If corporal punishment is Biblical then so is stoning people to death.)
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:36 pm

It's true that Jesus didn't condemn corporal punishment.

Tough luck for corporals.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:49 pm

Burn is also involved with THIS: http://www.durhamfreeschool.org/ (http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/900448721)
However, in May the BHA were not referring to this one as a creationist bid: http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1037
See also: http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-forme ... -special-a (note the ref to the Steiner Academy in Exeter).
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:39 am

Roger Stanyard wrote:RE teachers are not qualified to teach the philosophy of science; it's a complex and demanding piece of philosophy which demands specialist knowledge and has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever it is you claim to be your religion.


To be honest even a science teacher would need to read up on this BUT since it's just the background for how science works it's not going to be that difficult for them to do so. The key names they'ed need a Popper and Kuhn.
Moon Fire
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby cathy » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:50 am

To be honest even a science teacher would need to read up on this BUT since it's just the background for how science works it's not going to be that difficult for them to do so. The key names they'ed need a Popper and Kuhn.
To be honest nobody at our school bothered. We read up on the how science works stuff from the exam boards and in the new textbooks and some science in society stuff, most of which had been implicit in the curriculum anyway. The stuff we needed in other words. In science we teach science in relevant contexts where appropriate. Not sure you could really understand the philosophy of it as Marc presents it till you understand some science and how it works, including peer review processes.

And the philosophy of science to which Marc refers is not on any scshool curriculum. As far as I can tell from creationist arguments it involves things like paradigms and worldviews colouring science to the exclusion of all else - including evidence. And that means simple obvious things like the fact that paradigms can only shift when the evidence dictates (as per steady state to big bang) is wrapped up in something sinister like hidden agendas. Hidden agendas, to be honest, are already covered in the simple statement research is less trustworthy if the people involved have an agenda,

Now I know Marc and his creationist pals would love that to be a God killing agenda but actually that particular agenda only exists in their heads! No sane scientist I know is doing scientific research for the sole purpose of ridding the world of belief, not even their nemesis Dawkins.

I don't think I'd ever had call to use the word paradigm in my life prior to discovering creationists btw. And I don't recall ever hearing the term worldview before Marc.

As I understand it Marc also wants philosophy of science to suggest some kind of massive worldwide conspiracy amongst millions of scientists to hide evidence against evolution and wipe out religion. :evil: Dressed up in the guise of lets teach children to critically evaluate evolution by putting in irrelevant esoteric details about stuff that is still being researched. Like specific dates and timelines rather than the process as a whole.

His philosophy of science involves treating evolution specifically as if wasn't part of a general introductory biology course for gcse but a specialist post grad one on the evolution of tetrapods nails! We've found a disagreement on that therefore the whole thing is dodgy and God did it 6000 years ago by magic. But we'll ignore the fact we know less about gravity and therefore using creationist logic, it is also dodgy and we may just float away some day :evil:

A level of detail criticising just one topic with the sole aim of making children thing there is something dodgy about it so we can push Genesis in under the guise of ID. :evil:

The real agenda would be creationism cos that would impact on science. All evidence that does not support Genesis must be surpressed or lied about!

Oh and Marc would also like the curriculum to ensure that any Christian scientists would have their religion referenced. Giving the impression that things like gravity and light aren't actually independent of that fact and would somehow be different if Newton had been an atheist, Muslim, woman or slug! Never really got that crap creationist argument if I'm honest. So early scientists were Christians, so what. The science remains the same and that is what is being taught - we still evolved no matter how many times Faraday went to church. And those inconvenient ancient earth and evolution facts were partly discovered by scientists going out with a Genesis paradigm/worldview head on. They followed the evidence instead. But Marc wouldn't really like that bit in philosophy of science.

So the views of Dawkins and Collins on religion are not really relevant at all in science. Science is not the philosophy of science, which can't be understood till you actually understand some basic science. Marcs take on philosophy of science is to skew it into babbling inanity anyway. And the fact that Sevenoaks links to the document mentioning grand religious notions as part of science is enough on its own to make me suspicious of it as a free school. It strays too far into the paranoid ramblings of factphobic, neutrality denying, arch creationist Arthur Jones.

As for philosophy, I'm not sure it isn't being superceded a bit by psychology, sociology and science anyway.
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby cathy » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:00 am

Burn is also involved with THIS: http://www.durhamfreeschool.org/ (http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/900448721)
However, in May the BHA were not referring to this one as a creationist bid: http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1037
See also: http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-forme ... -special-a (note the ref to the Steiner Academy in Exeter).

Hmm the Bede academy appears to be an Emmanuel School! And nobody remotely linked to the Christian Institute is fit to be involved in the education of children. It is a horrendously backward looking intolerant organisation. It wants to drag us back from freedom of religion and every other right we've fought for over the last 100 years to some kind of repressive state. And it is creationist, it just hides it well. I notice it hasn't overtly put anything about free schools on its headline page at all.

So I might have been willing to take Chris Gray at his word when he said creationism was lethal (he didn't have to be like his mum after all he might have been ok), but if Burns were brought on board that recently he is dodgy and the school will have knowingly forged links to hardline creationist loons. So not worth the risk to children and a massive waste of taxpayers money.

And Durham is worrying as well. That seems to have crept in under the radar. I'm suspicious of any new faith free school to be honest. They haven't had the years to start becoming focused on education rather than indoctrination, and anyone hoping to open a school is a bit odd and must have some kind of agenda. Whether it be making sure their own children get the education they want or money or religious indoctrination.
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:33 am

cathy wrote:I don't think I'd ever had call to use the word paradigm in my life prior to discovering creationists btw. And I don't recall ever hearing the term worldview before Marc.
I'm afraid Michael Reiss used "worldview", and left people with the impression that he thought the creationist worldview was as valid as any other. The key, I think, to his downfall.
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:13 am

cathy wrote:I don't think I'd ever had call to use the word paradigm in my life prior to discovering creationists btw. And I don't recall ever hearing the term worldview before Marc.

The first time I came across the term "worldview" was when George W Bush (Chimpie) described Bill Clinton as having the "wrong worldview". It would have been about the year 2000. It's actually a completely meaningless word concocted by the religious American right as an exercise in polemics. It sounds "good" until you try and define how people think. In practice its Planet Wingnuttia doublespeak for "your wrong because you don't think like us". Trouble is Planet Wingnuttia doesn't think at all. We all to some greater or lesser extent understand the world differently depending on our experience of life, education, language, personalities, peer groups and families, the time and place we live in and our age and sex. What the fundies' real "worldview" is is probably nothing more than crude narcissism soaked in paranoia. It's sad, really, and isn't Christianity.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:18 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:It's true that Jesus didn't condemn corporal punishment.



He should of.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:51 am

Moon Fire wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:RE teachers are not qualified to teach the philosophy of science; it's a complex and demanding piece of philosophy which demands specialist knowledge and has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever it is you claim to be your religion.


To be honest even a science teacher would need to read up on this BUT since it's just the background for how science works it's not going to be that difficult for them to do so. The key names they'ed need a Popper and Kuhn.


Which begs the question who is going to teach creationism in science lessons as the fundies so desire? Why should any science teacher know anything at all about "creation science" or, indeed, be willing to teach it as it is a religious, not a scientific, position?

The limited evidence we have from the Vardy schools suggests that science teachers in schools controlled by fundamentalists and not willing to teach creationism get fired and replaced by fundamentalist teachers. Which is religious discrimination in the workplace.

The UK isn't the USA where there is a huge pool of fundamentalist"universities" teaching creationism; typically a disprortionate number of students from such "universities" go on into school teaching. No university in the UK teaches cretinism and if they did probably wouldn't be recognised as a university.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:12 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:Which begs the question who is going to teach creationism in science lessons as the fundies so desire? Why should any science teacher know anything at all about "creation science" or, indeed, be willing to teach it as it is a religious, not a scientific, position?
Not a problem, I'm afraid. As you pointed out, Vardy schools replaced teachers with compliant ones - IIRC they went so far as to import them from Northern Ireland. It's even less of a problem now, since Gove has allowed the "free" schools to dispense with the services of qualified teachers. Watch out for the new specialism of "creation scientist" in free schools' bloated RE departments.
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Free For All

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron