Two more creationist free schools approved

All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:14 pm

cathy wrote:
To be honest even a science teacher would need to read up on this BUT since it's just the background for how science works it's not going to be that difficult for them to do so. The key names they'ed need a Popper and Kuhn.
To be honest nobody at our school bothered. We read up on the how science works stuff from the exam boards and in the new textbooks and some science in society stuff, most of which had been implicit in the curriculum anyway. The stuff we needed in other words. In science we teach science in relevant contexts where appropriate. Not sure you could really understand the philosophy of it as Marc presents it till you understand some science and how it works, including peer review processes.


You wouldn't need a lot of reading up but I do agree with you that you need to understand the How Science Works stuff before you got into any of the Philosophy of Science.

cathy wrote:And the philosophy of science to which Marc refers is not on any scshool curriculum. As far as I can tell from creationist arguments it involves things like paradigms and worldviews colouring science to the exclusion of all else - including evidence. And that means simple obvious things like the fact that paradigms can only shift when the evidence dictates (as per steady state to big bang) is wrapped up in something sinister like hidden agendas. Hidden agendas, to be honest, are already covered in the simple statement research is less trustworthy if the people involved have an agenda,


Yep, they're using it to try and fudge in more of their BS. It can actually be really interesting to look into, and for part of my PGCE I actually wrote an essay on a Paradigm shift in Geology, the Neptunism to Plutonism one (I had briefly considered doing Plate Tectonics) which was an early and important one within Geology. But it's interesting that creationists bleet on about us having hidden agendas in science when they clearly feel the need to side step around their agenda a lot of the time.

cathy wrote:Now I know Marc and his creationist pals would love that to be a God killing agenda but actually that particular agenda only exists in their heads! No sane scientist I know is doing scientific research for the sole purpose of ridding the world of belief, not even their nemesis Dawkins.


Exactly! The whole nature of science is that it is agnostic about the supernatural as a whole as there is no way of testing if the supernatural exists or not. If we could test for it then it would be natural not supernatural.

cathy wrote:I don't think I'd ever had call to use the word paradigm in my life prior to discovering creationists btw. And I don't recall ever hearing the term worldview before Marc.


I think I first heard it on my PGCE when I was doing some stuff on the history of science and I had that essay to do.

cathy wrote:As I understand it Marc also wants philosophy of science to suggest some kind of massive worldwide conspiracy amongst millions of scientists to hide evidence against evolution and wipe out religion. :evil: Dressed up in the guise of lets teach children to critically evaluate evolution by putting in irrelevant esoteric details about stuff that is still being researched. Like specific dates and timelines rather than the process as a whole.


Yep, back to their whole desire to undermine science....

cathy wrote:His philosophy of science involves treating evolution specifically as if wasn't part of a general introductory biology course for gcse but a specialist post grad one on the evolution of tetrapods nails! We've found a disagreement on that therefore the whole thing is dodgy and God did it 6000 years ago by magic. But we'll ignore the fact we know less about gravity and therefore using creationist logic, it is also dodgy and we may just float away some day :evil:


He doesn't have a philosophy of science, because what he wants isn't science! He wants people to go around putting his conclusion first (i.e. the general YEC conclusion that the genesis story is true) and then find evidence for that.....science puts the evidence first and conclusion after that.

cathy wrote:A level of detail criticising just one topic with the sole aim of making children thing there is something dodgy about it so we can push Genesis in under the guise of ID. :evil:


Spot on!

cathy wrote:The real agenda would be creationism cos that would impact on science. All evidence that does not support Genesis must be surpressed or lied about!


Well to them it's all evidence for creation, you just have to interpret it the right way.....*eye roll*

cathy wrote:Oh and Marc would also like the curriculum to ensure that any Christian scientists would have their religion referenced. Giving the impression that things like gravity and light aren't actually independent of that fact and would somehow be different if Newton had been an atheist, Muslim, woman or slug! Never really got that crap creationist argument if I'm honest. So early scientists were Christians, so what. The science remains the same and that is what is being taught - we still evolved no matter how many times Faraday went to church. And those inconvenient ancient earth and evolution facts were partly discovered by scientists going out with a Genesis paradigm/worldview head on. They followed the evidence instead. But Marc wouldn't really like that bit in philosophy of science.


Ah but it's much better to believe that they were lead astray by satan using science....

cathy wrote:So the views of Dawkins and Collins on religion are not really relevant at all in science. Science is not the philosophy of science, which can't be understood till you actually understand some basic science. Marcs take on philosophy of science is to skew it into babbling inanity anyway. And the fact that Sevenoaks links to the document mentioning grand religious notions as part of science is enough on its own to make me suspicious of it as a free school. It strays too far into the paranoid ramblings of factphobic, neutrality denying, arch creationist Arthur Jones.

As for philosophy, I'm not sure it isn't being superceded a bit by psychology, sociology and science anyway.


Your right about the philosophy of science not being science and needing some science. I also generally wouldn't trust creationists with anything that is even remotely science related.
Last edited by Moon Fire on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moon Fire
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Moon Fire wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:RE teachers are not qualified to teach the philosophy of science; it's a complex and demanding piece of philosophy which demands specialist knowledge and has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever it is you claim to be your religion.


To be honest even a science teacher would need to read up on this BUT since it's just the background for how science works it's not going to be that difficult for them to do so. The key names they'ed need a Popper and Kuhn.


Which begs the question who is going to teach creationism in science lessons as the fundies so desire? Why should any science teacher know anything at all about "creation science" or, indeed, be willing to teach it as it is a religious, not a scientific, position?

The limited evidence we have from the Vardy schools suggests that science teachers in schools controlled by fundamentalists and not willing to teach creationism get fired and replaced by fundamentalist teachers. Which is religious discrimination in the workplace.

The UK isn't the USA where there is a huge pool of fundamentalist"universities" teaching creationism; typically a disprortionate number of students from such "universities" go on into school teaching. No university in the UK teaches cretinism and if they did probably wouldn't be recognised as a university.


I know I'd have an 'interesting' time in that situation......although it's interesting to bear in mind that teachers get qualifications to teach and it's just down to the head deploying them to teach their specialism....so whilst I'm trained to teach science i might get stuck teaching some french one day.
Moon Fire
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby cathy » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:32 pm

The limited evidence we have from the Vardy schools suggests that science teachers in schools controlled by fundamentalists and not willing to teach creationism get fired and replaced by fundamentalist teachers. Which is religious discrimination in the workplace.
The whole of our dept would walk if they had to give any creationist nonsense the time of day. We did have a dodgy governor at some point apparently.

Ah but it's much better to believe that they were lead astray by satan using science....

You may jest but until recently Marcs homeschooling materials were being advertised under the notion that education and the media were being used by Satan to remove God! He has now changed that from Satan to atheistic science possibly realising just how offensive it was, or possibly not. Thing is four years ago I was clearly a Christian of sorts now I'm clearly an atheist and yet the science hasn't changed one little bit. So I'm not quite sure how that works at all Christian ionisation energies and atheist ionisation energies all the same :? !!!!
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:37 pm

cathy wrote:
The limited evidence we have from the Vardy schools suggests that science teachers in schools controlled by fundamentalists and not willing to teach creationism get fired and replaced by fundamentalist teachers. Which is religious discrimination in the workplace.
The whole of our dept would walk if they had to give any creationist nonsense the time of day. We did have a dodgy governor at some point apparently.


I think that's pretty much what I'd do, walk out, if i was told I *had* to teach that. Either that or I'd stick to my guns about it not being science and be asked to leave.

cathy wrote:
Ah but it's much better to believe that they were lead astray by satan using science....

You may jest but until recently Marcs homeschooling materials were being advertised under the notion that education and the media were being used by Satan to remove God! He has now changed that from Satan to atheistic science possibly realising just how offensive it was, or possibly not. Thing is four years ago I was clearly a Christian of sorts now I'm clearly an atheist and yet the science hasn't changed one little bit. So I'm not quite sure how that works at all Christian ionisation energies and atheist ionisation energies all the same :? !!!!


Oh I've heard the satan thing before, have you ever watched any of the Kent Hovind vids? I know it's actually a serious thing for some of them.
Moon Fire
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Michael » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:52 pm

Moon Fire wrote:
cathy wrote:
The limited evidence we have from the Vardy schools suggests that science teachers in schools controlled by fundamentalists and not willing to teach creationism get fired and replaced by fundamentalist teachers. Which is religious discrimination in the workplace.
The whole of our dept would walk if they had to give any creationist nonsense the time of day. We did have a dodgy governor at some point apparently.


I think that's pretty much what I'd do, walk out, if i was told I *had* to teach that. Either that or I'd stick to my guns about it not being science and be asked to leave.

cathy wrote:
Ah but it's much better to believe that they were lead astray by satan using science....

You may jest but until recently Marcs homeschooling materials were being advertised under the notion that education and the media were being used by Satan to remove God! He has now changed that from Satan to atheistic science possibly realising just how offensive it was, or possibly not. Thing is four years ago I was clearly a Christian of sorts now I'm clearly an atheist and yet the science hasn't changed one little bit. So I'm not quite sure how that works at all Christian ionisation energies and atheist ionisation energies all the same :? !!!!


Oh I've heard the satan thing before, have you ever watched any of the Kent Hovind vids? I know it's actually a serious thing for some of them.



As a matter of fact PH has been called Spawn of Satan and I do the work of Satan. If you didn't know
Michael
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: Lancaster

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:30 pm

BHA digs deeper into Grindon Hall
Richy Thompson has dug a bit deeper and notes that John Burn is in fact the school's Chairman and has found, at last, a (removed) link from the main site to the Creation document - which was offered for anyone - not just staff etc - to download in 2009. Four years after its supposed removal.
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1085
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby cathy » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:01 pm

Brian I can't help feeling something is dissolving the Grindon Hall website!

The first time I went on to it, before posting here, it had on its links and downloads page a link to Jesmond (oh yes thats right the other creationist and CI loon establishment hoping to open a free brainwashing school) and its sermons. I cut and pasted it on the first post on this thread. But I've just gone on to their site and clicked on links and downloads and - there aren't any!!

Whereas before I found this on downloads and links for pupils - eight days ago..
Its an existing private school but looks dodgy. In its links to visit it has Jesmond sermons


Link to the Scripture Union website.


> Visit

Sermons from Jesmond Parish Church – great sermons, many of which can be downloaded in mp3 format.


Now I find this
Below is a list of download for pupils to view.
There is no file to download for the moment

and this
Downloads & Links

Below is a list of downloads for you to view.

There is no file to download for the moment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below is a list of link for you to visit.

There are no links available at the moment

Why the website seems to be disappearing before our very eyes. Like photos in Stalins Russia, all evidence of creationism is being photoshopped out :shock: :shock: And the links list contained quite a few assemblies which I didn't listen to/look at but wish I had :evil:

But far more worryingly is the fact they are confirming places for September. I suspect that is the point of no return in getting it stopped!!! Once a parent has a place where can they go if it disappears. Not sure what the legal position on that is.
Last edited by cathy on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:02 pm

Michael wrote:As a matter of fact PH has been called Spawn of Satan and I do the work of Satan. If you didn't know


PH?
Moon Fire
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 pm

cathy wrote:Brian I can't help feeling something is dissolving the Grindon Hall website!
Indeed. I saw the Jesmond link in the past few days, along with a Bethany (not Sheffield) one. Both had gone when I looked again but both can be seen on an Internet Archive snapshot such as the one in the BHA article showing the link to the creationism document.
> Visit

Link to the website of Bethany Christian Centre, Houghton-le-Spring which contains a number of downloadable sermons.

> Visit

Sermons from Jesmond Parish Church – great sermons, many of which can be downloaded in mp3 format.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090503122655/http:/www.grindonhall.com/downloads-links/downloads-links.asp
Like photos in Stalins Russia, all evidence of creationism is being photoshopped out
Indeed: all we need now are the Potemkin villages to dupe the gullible.
NB: on the Internet Archive pages, the VISIT links are above the link description
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:27 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:It's true that Jesus didn't condemn corporal punishment.



He should of.



As far as I know he didn't expressly advocate it. Though there was a certain INCIDENT in a temple involving a whip (see John 2:15). On the other hand, he rebuked Peter for cutting off someone's ear.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:28 pm

Moon Fire wrote:
Michael wrote:As a matter of fact PH has been called Spawn of Satan and I do the work of Satan. If you didn't know


PH?



Peter Henderson I think. A bit unfair.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Brian Jordan » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:58 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:
Moon Fire wrote:
Michael wrote:As a matter of fact PH has been called Spawn of Satan and I do the work of Satan. If you didn't know


PH?



Peter Henderson I think. A bit unfair.
Only "a bit" Ashley? Now that is a bit unfair!
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby cathy » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:03 pm

And the absolutely tragic news is that the first creatinist loon school looks to be grabbing the cash from the real world. From Grindons website today. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
FREE SCHOOL UPDATE on 1st August



Today we have been informed that our funding agreement is just about ready to be signed and accordingly the DfE have authorised us to let parents know that all conditional offers made last week are now FIRM OFFERS.



If you have already accepted a place, you need take no further action.



Please note the deadlines for responses given in your letter - either for acceptances or for appeals.



The full postal address to which replies should be sent is:



The Admissions Registrar

Grindon Hall Christian School

Nookside

Sunderland

SR4 8PG



Further updates will appear here as necessary.
#
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:01 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:It's true that Jesus didn't condemn corporal punishment.



He should of.



As far as I know he didn't expressly advocate it. Though there was a certain INCIDENT in a temple involving a whip (see John 2:15). On the other hand, he rebuked Peter for cutting off someone's ear.


As well as those who were going to stone to death the woman who committed adultery.
Peter Henderson
 
Posts: 4353
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:07 pm
Location: Jordanstown, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland

Re: Two more creationist free schools approved

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:40 pm

Stoning to death being capital punishment.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 9075
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Free For All

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests

cron