Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby cathy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:20 pm

For a laugh ask him how you differentiate aeolian sands from marine sands.....

And how it proves a global flood. After all he's done a whole talk confirming the global flood based on the above for the Genesis agenda lectures! Bet the uni would love those.

And I wonder how old he's telling people the world is. And more interestingly who is funding it? After all the days of free masters are long gone.

Will he be doing this using his worldview to interpret the evidence cos that will make things really interesting. If he isn't cos he'll fail, will he be explicitly telling people that afterwards or will they be led to believe he was able to pass wowing the world with his worldviews and without compromising his YEC delusions.

This makes me really angry as he will lie and will bring UCL to disrepute (and haven't they already had problems with Islamic creationists).

Still at least he'll know the meanings of the words he get from the geology dictionaries he uses as a substitute for research.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:06 pm

Welcome aboard, Hugh, and thanks for that gem of information.
No wonder they've shut the Premier forum down and deleted all the posts - that's where Garner confirmed that he believed in a dinosaur-bearing Ark! (I've a sneaky feeling that I might have kept a copy, though. :twisted: )
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Steve660 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:30 pm

HughKnows wrote:I can solve the mystery for you! He's spending a year at UCL masquerading as a rational science student in an attempt to get an MSc in Geosciences. I see him most weeks in lectures (he even did a presentation on dinosaurs!), but he's keeping very quiet about all this young earth creationist stuff.


Interesting, and disturbing, news. I think it is reasonable to assume Garner is only doing this to lend credibility to his young-earth views. If he succeeds then, predictably, creationists will be trumpeting it from the rooftops, and Garner will be presented as a "scientist" with good geological credentials.

Hugh, if you read this, and if you want a few awkward points to embarrass Garner with, go to Amazon.co.uk, search on "Set in Stone DVD" (Garner's masterpiece) and read my review "Deceit in Stone" and also page 6 of the comments thread where I respond to his rebuttal. My key questions, at the end of my response, especially about why he ignored the literature on Siccar Point, should send him scurrying for cover. Please also give my review a positive vote! The creationists have been busily voting it down so that it doesn't get noticed.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:33 pm

I have no problem with an article evaluating Christian views on origins appearing in the Evangelical Times. When a practising evangelical Christian, some while ago, I was rather fuzzy about the whole origins (Genesis vs science) issue. I suspect many UK Christians remain so today - possibly intentionally because they know it is awkward and potentially divisive.

This is Part 1 - OK so far. http://www.evangelical-times.org/archiv ... Cbr%20/%3E

What WOULD be a problem is if in Part 2 Garner states, using his geology credentials, that the evidence pointing to the age of the Earth and universe is 'ambiguous' and therefore the YEC stance is scientifically supported as well as a 'plain' reading of the Bible.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:42 am

HughKnows wrote:I can solve the mystery for you! He's spending a year at UCL masquerading as a rational science student in an attempt to get an MSc in Geosciences. I see him most weeks in lectures (he even did a presentation on dinosaurs!), but he's keeping very quiet about all this young earth creationist stuff.


A past Christian friend in his late 70s named Tony Gayler, active with the evangelical discipling organisation The Navigators and who was at Westminster Chapel till the mid 1990s, has for years visited students at some London colleges including Imperial and - I think - parts of UCL. My best guess is that if asked he would lean towards old Earth creationism - a position I can respect. I once caught sight of Attenborough's book 'The Private Life of Plants' in his home - along with many Christian books and Bible Study booklets. I think, when asked, The Navigators as an organisation may lean towards the OEC position (possibly the progressive creationism of Hugh Ross) rather than either YEC-ism or theistic evolution - they are about studying the New Testament as much as anything else. As well as being involved with The Navigators for years and years, Tony in fact worked at Amersham International, has/had a hobby of electrically rewiring his home every so often, and has something of a science background (don't know the details as it never came up when in the past I attended a group Bible study at his home).

http://www.navigators.co.uk/
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ion.html#2 (see the comment about President Emeritus Jerry White in the third para)
Last edited by a_haworthroberts on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:48 am

I see that this article - which appears to criticise The Navigators sharply from a number of different angles - states that NavPress have published several of Hugh Ross' books. A sin presumably.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psy ... vigato.htm
"NavPress has published three of Hugh Ross's books -- Creation and Time, The Creator and the Cosmos, and Beyond the Cosmos. Ross is perhaps the most visible spokesman for Progressive Creationism, a belief that opposes both atheistic evolutionism and historic Christianity's understanding of Biblical creationism. At best, Ross is a theistic evolutionist [NO HE ISN'T]. Among other things, Ross teaches that the Earth is billions of years old and that physical death fully existed long before Adam. Yet, this belief causes the doctrines of sin and salvation to fall! If death and bloodshed preceded Adam's rebellion against God, then what are "the wages of sin" and how did the entrance of sin change things? And if death preceded sin, then death is not the penalty for sin, and Christ's death on the cross accomplished nothing! Even though such evolutionary and old-earth thinking is totally incompatible with the work of Christ, NavPress has had no problem publishing and promoting Ross's books."
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:04 am

Steve660 wrote:Interesting, and disturbing, news. I think it is reasonable to assume Garner is only doing this to lend credibility to his young-earth views. If he succeeds then, predictably, creationists will be trumpeting it from the rooftops, and Garner will be presented as a "scientist" with good geological credentials.

You never know the education may actually rub off on him! Okay, he's an ideologue, so probably no recanting. He'll just spend the year developing his dissonance skills. The really annoying thing is that he will probably gather a fistful of new and hard to get references, buried behind paywalls, which he'll toss out like chaff the next time he gets pinned in an intellectual corner.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:22 am

jon_12091 wrote:
Steve660 wrote:Interesting, and disturbing, news. I think it is reasonable to assume Garner is only doing this to lend credibility to his young-earth views. If he succeeds then, predictably, creationists will be trumpeting it from the rooftops, and Garner will be presented as a "scientist" with good geological credentials.

You never know the education may actually rub off on him! Okay, he's an ideologue, so probably no recanting. He'll just spend the year developing his dissonance skills. The really annoying thing is that he will probably gather a fistful of new and hard to get references, buried behind paywalls, which he'll toss out like chaff the next time he gets pinned in an intellectual corner.


If three years at Cambridge didn't stop him from being a nutter, I can't see how one year at UCL would.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby cathy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:58 am

A past Christian friend in his late 70s named Tony Gayler, active with the evangelical discipling organisation The Navigators and who was at Westminster Chapel till the mid 1990s, has for years visited students at some London colleges including Imperial and - I think - parts of UCL.

Part of my oldest childs course is ethics (a tiny part that she doesn't seem to enjoy much) and she's being taught it by someone religious that does the same thing for a few of the London colleges including UCL as well. I think she is officially employed though, and oldest child thinks she's some kind of chaplain as well. She can't be a YECer tho given the courses she's delivering ethics too and the fact shes really nice and invites them for cups of tea after lectures to chat.

Maybe Garner will use his set in stone dvd as part of his course? I'm sure none of the other students have a groundbreaking, best selling educational dvd that overturns all we know about geology to their name. Wonder if he mentioned it in his personal statement?
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:49 am

cathy wrote:
A past Christian friend in his late 70s named Tony Gayler, active with the evangelical discipling organisation The Navigators and who was at Westminster Chapel till the mid 1990s, has for years visited students at some London colleges including Imperial and - I think - parts of UCL.

Part of my oldest childs course is ethics (a tiny part that she doesn't seem to enjoy much) and she's being taught it by someone religious that does the same thing for a few of the London colleges including UCL as well. I think she is officially employed though, and oldest child thinks she's some kind of chaplain as well. She can't be a YECer tho given the courses she's delivering ethics too and the fact shes really nice and invites them for cups of tea after lectures to chat.

Maybe Garner will use his set in stone dvd as part of his course? I'm sure none of the other students have a groundbreaking, best selling educational dvd that overturns all we know about geology to their name. Wonder if he mentioned it in his personal statement?


Even when I was an undergraduate, the American evangelicals were targeting UCL, presumably because they though the "Godless scum of Gower Street" needed saving. IIRC the beadles were quite within their rights to tell them to leave the grounds of the university.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:51 pm

Maybe Garner will use his set in stone dvd as part of his course?


Indeed Cathy, when he was posting on Premier I asked him several times why he didn't present it before the Geological Society, of which he's a member. He simply refused to answer.

I suppose he thinks that peer review amongst other creationists means it's been "peer reviewed" and it's therefore OK, from a scientific point of view, just like the Answers Research Journal or the Journal of Creation are peer reviewed science publications.

That "evolutionists" think it's a load of crap is neither here nor there.

He'll probably not be too pleased now that his cover is blown.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:03 pm

By the way, he has this on the truth in science website:

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/i ... arner.html


The place to address brainwashing is in education, but it cannot be done properly without the critical evaluation of alternative hypotheses proposed to explain evidence


Conclusion
It is necessary to distinguish between evidence-based approaches to reconstructing earth history and the specific conceptual models for integrating these evidences into a coherent narrative. Our DVD focuses on the evidences that must be explained by any model of earth history. In an educational context, this is the issue that needs facing because model building cannot get far if the evidences themselves are misunderstood. Unfortunately, our critic seems committed to fighting a rear-guard action to perpetuate worn-out paradigms, an approach that is likely to hamper education. His critique consists of unwarranted extrapolations of present day rates into the geological past, assertions presented without evidence and a failure to consider alternative hypotheses. He makes unfounded accusations of dishonesty and yet selectively omits crucial information himself. In some cases it is evident that he has not even read the scientific work that he is seeking to criticise. We intended our documentary to raise questions, promote thought and encourage further investigation. We think we have succeeded in that aim and that our critic’s efforts to refute our case have failed. We stand by the arguments we have presented.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:20 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:By the way, he has this on the truth in science website:

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/i ... arner.html


The place to address brainwashing is in education, but it cannot be done properly without the critical evaluation of alternative hypotheses proposed to explain evidence


Conclusion
It is necessary to distinguish between evidence-based approaches to reconstructing earth history and the specific conceptual models for integrating these evidences into a coherent narrative. Our DVD focuses on the evidences that must be explained by any model of earth history. In an educational context, this is the issue that needs facing because model building cannot get far if the evidences themselves are misunderstood. Unfortunately, our critic seems committed to fighting a rear-guard action to perpetuate worn-out paradigms, an approach that is likely to hamper education. His critique consists of unwarranted extrapolations of present day rates into the geological past, assertions presented without evidence and a failure to consider alternative hypotheses. He makes unfounded accusations of dishonesty and yet selectively omits crucial information himself. In some cases it is evident that he has not even read the scientific work that he is seeking to criticise. We intended our documentary to raise questions, promote thought and encourage further investigation. We think we have succeeded in that aim and that our critic’s efforts to refute our case have failed. We stand by the arguments we have presented.


This appears to have been the same response that was linked to here: http://thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/ ... n-moreton/

Though I noticed that the version on the Truth in Science website refers to 'our critic' rather than 'Moreton'.

I don't recall Stephen Moreton's response ever being acknowledged or addressed on the TiS website. Funny that - considering their professed concern for 'truth' and 'science'.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Steve660 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:29 pm

I don't recall Stephen Moreton's response ever being acknowledged or addressed on the TiS website. Funny that - considering their professed concern for 'truth' and 'science'.


Indeed it was never even acknowledged. Creationists are happy to acknowledge criticism when they think they can answer it, but not when they know they can't. The only response my rebuttal seemed to attract was further "No" votes to keep others from seeing it. Perhaps you can get some of your friends and relatives to give a few "Yes" votes to redress the balance!

I have had the same dishonest treatment off Tasman Walker. When the Giants Causeway affair first blew up there were condemnations from various quarters, but mostly just ivory tower huffing and puffing. There was only ONE serious attempt to address the actual creationist claims on detailed technical grounds - my article in Earth Science Ireland, vol. 6. When the affair hit the news again recently, Walker cheerfully cited on the CMI website probably every one of the principal critical statements that had originally been issued, EXCEPT for one. Guess which one?

Walker has also been continuing to peddle his Siccar Point rubbish, so I asked him why he was ignoring my rebuttal in "The Skeptic" (published in Australia, and CMI subscribes to it). He claimed he'd not seen it. But did he then acknowledge it on his own site? You can guess the answer.

Is it any wonder creationists are so often accused of acting dishonestly?
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:38 pm

I've just commented at Amazon.com, following your new comment.

If sincere Christians find they have been misled about science by YEC Christians, or that rebuttals of YEC claims have been censored from their view, that might challenge their faith. Thus the YECs - as one might expect - try to protect their followers from the possibility of such a challenge. In theory, a true Christian should not be shaken to find that a YEC leader is wrong or deceitful - after all they are meant to walk by faith not by sight.

But sometimes the Christian is unquestioningly trusting the YEC instead of or as well as Christ...
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