Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby cathy » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:29 am

When I asked him why he didn't present set in stone to the Geological Society, and why they issued a statement rejecting young Earth creationism, he quoted 2nd Peter to me.
Ah does 2nd Peter contain the following then?

"Do not liest to experts in their own fields or they'll shred you to pieces and thy massive ego may decreaseth?"

"Save instead thy lies for those in ignorance, and do thy bullying best lest they fail to remainest in ignorance and dryest up thy bank balance?

"Set in Stone is crap for the blindly faithful and wilfully ignorant only - those who understandeth the world will see it is good ONLY cos Garner sayest it is good and is really deceitful crap?

"For all shall obey the commandments 'cept those who tellest creationist lies. For them there are no rules. Thou may freely liest and pooest on others if thou are a member of a creationist organisation - for creationists know that they know better than God what he doests and wanteth."

I doubt 2nd Peter said any of those so yet again Garner will have been spouting @@@@!

Please somebody send his stuff to UCL.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:50 pm

I doubt 2nd Peter said any of those so yet again Garner will have been spouting @@@@!

Please somebody send his stuff to UCL.


Indeed Cathy:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


He seemed to think the above verses applied to those who ran the Geological Society, at least that was the impression I got !
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Michael » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:28 pm

This shows what nasty people creationists are , using bible verses (wrongly of course) to show others wrong

However they take no notice of Exodus 20 vs16
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:05 pm

Michael wrote:This shows what nasty people creationists are , using bible verses (wrongly of course) to show others wrong

However they take no notice of Exodus 20 vs16


Or Proverbs 6 vs 19
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Garner gets the Claire treatment.

Garner's recently spoken at the Edinburgh Creation Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aNlb3lFhFM

to which Claire has commented:

WildwoodClaire1
1 week ago
The assertion that continents could not "sink beneath sea level" is marvelously stupid because it ignores, among many other things, that sea level has varied greatly throughout geologic time, as has the topography of the continents, hence the extent of shallow marine environments (and epicontinental seas) has varied greatly as well. Garner's assertion also hilariously defies common sense and easily observed data. It is quite easy to observe that many sedimentary rocks made up of sediments deposited in shallow marine environments have been highly compressed, folded and faulted up into mountains, such a the Alps, Andes, Himalayas, Rockies, and a host of other mountain ranges. And, it is easy to establish that the ages of the rocks are quite old because many are cross-cut by igneous rocks, such as granites and basalts, formed from magma, and these can and often are radiometrically dated. Garner and other young Earth numpties often simultaneously suggest that the continents are static but underwent catastrophic deformation owing to a global flood, thus having their creationist cake and eating it as well


A good explanation of his error is found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDnd4Ly2OU

He now has a "PhD" apparently and is referred to as "Dr."
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:27 am

Peter Henderson wrote:Garner gets the Claire treatment.

Garner's recently spoken at the Edinburgh Creation Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aNlb3lFhFM

to which Claire has commented:

WildwoodClaire1
1 week ago
The assertion that continents could not "sink beneath sea level" is marvelously stupid because it ignores, among many other things, that sea level has varied greatly throughout geologic time, as has the topography of the continents, hence the extent of shallow marine environments (and epicontinental seas) has varied greatly as well. Garner's assertion also hilariously defies common sense and easily observed data. It is quite easy to observe that many sedimentary rocks made up of sediments deposited in shallow marine environments have been highly compressed, folded and faulted up into mountains, such a the Alps, Andes, Himalayas, Rockies, and a host of other mountain ranges. And, it is easy to establish that the ages of the rocks are quite old because many are cross-cut by igneous rocks, such as granites and basalts, formed from magma, and these can and often are radiometrically dated. Garner and other young Earth numpties often simultaneously suggest that the continents are static but underwent catastrophic deformation owing to a global flood, thus having their creationist cake and eating it as well


A good explanation of his error is found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDnd4Ly2OU

He now has a "PhD" apparently and is referred to as "Dr."


UM, but he was doing a master's degree at UCL. Not the same thing! IIRC, Garner claimed he got his first degree from Cambridge. Turns out that the degree was from a university in Cambridge but not Cambridge University. According to his LinkedIn profile it was from Anglia Ruskin University (I've never heard of it!) in Cambridge. See http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-garner/2/a43/881

So the attempts to pass himself off as an expert in geology when he had only studied environmental sciences seem to be leading to the same pattern. His one year MSc in geociences at UCL has suddenly become a PhD.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:44 am

Peter Henderson wrote:He now has a "PhD" apparently and is referred to as "Dr."


Seems it's a PhD from the ICR - http://www.icr.org/research/fast/
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:38 am

Well, Google can''t find that particular "Dr Paul Garner" until you get to page six, when it brings up that FAST link. That appears to have been written around 2010, but an embedded copyright notice says 2013 - perhaps updated the day he graduated?
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby jon_12091 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:17 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:UM, but he was doing a master's degree at UCL. Not the same thing! IIRC, Garner claimed he got his first degree from Cambridge. Turns out that the degree was from a university in Cambridge but not Cambridge University. According to his LinkedIn profile it was from Anglia Ruskin University (I've never heard of it!) in Cambridge. See http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-garner/2/a43/881

I'm also a graduate of the afformentioned institution, which was originally Cambridge College of Arts and Technology, before several name changes and the assent to the dizzying heights of univerversity status.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:11 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:Well, Google can''t find that particular "Dr Paul Garner" until you get to page six, when it brings up that FAST link. That appears to have been written around 2010, but an embedded copyright notice says 2013 - perhaps updated the day he graduated?


Well has he actually graduated from UCL given that he thinks the whole of mainstream geology is completely wrong unless it agrees with his personal religious opinions?

Something doesn't quite seen right here, Brian. Garner makes his living by runnng a "ministry" pushing hard line young earth creationism as well as, it appears, heading an organisation which claims to publish learned papers conradicting science (the BCS). He also has a phoney "PhD".

So how the hell did he cope with the course work at UCL? Did he just ignore everything he had claimed before? If so, why is he willing to lie either to the academics there or those he pushes YECIsm to?
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby psiloiordinary » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:41 am

The committee have had several emails from Paul Garner complaining that some of the speculations on this forum thread are inaccurate.

At the same time he has refused to allow me to post his emails here to state his own position. He doesn't give me a reason.

So I am left with little option but to summarise his position together with some short extracts from his emails and finally post my latest email reply to him;

1 - The ECG talk was given in March 2008
2 - The video that Peter Henderson links to claims Paul called himself a doctor but Paul states clearly that "The claim that I call myself "Dr Garner" is also erroneous, and the blogger provides no evidence to support it. I have categorically never called myself "Dr Garner" and I do not have a PhD, earned or otherwise. I am at a loss as to how the blogger came to this conclusion, especially since my credentials (as they were in March 2008) are accurately reported on the very first slide of the presentation that she is seeking to critique, namely "BSc, FGS". (I have since also obtained the MSc in Geoscience)."
3 - He also states that he has never claimed his degree was from Cambridge; "Nor have I ever claimed that my first degree was from the University of Cambridge, as Mr Stanyard suggests. He then insinuates that I have been making false claims about the nature of both my undergraduate and postgraduate degrees, a very serious claim indeed if it can be substantiated. However, Mr Stanyard is wrong on both counts. My undergraduate degree programme was labelled "Environmental Science" or "Combined Science", but students specialised in one of three fields: geology, biology or geography. I specialised in geology. My MSc in Geoscience has not "suddenly become" a PhD. Rather, an ill informed video blogger made an erroneous claim that was then repeated (without checking) by Peter Henderson on the BCSE forum and then used by Mr Stanyard (again, without checking) to cast aspersions upon my honesty and integrity in reporting my qualifications. I think I am owed an apology."
4 - ICR, in describing him as a PhD, are wrong and Rogers speculation that ICR awarded this to him is also wrong; "This, despite the fact that the ICR has never granted PhD degrees. (It did once have a graduate school granting masters degrees). The ICR web page listing me as "Dr. Paul Garner" is in error and I will contact ICR to ask them to correct it." They have now done so - but without any explanation or apology. see http://www.icr.org/research/fast/

This is the text of the email I just sent to Paul Garner;

Dear Paul,

I am hoping to get the time to paraphrase and extract your comments from your first email to the BCSE committee regarding the forum shortly. I will include the text of this email.

I can't for the life of me see why you are being so awkward as not to allow me to quote you in full in your complaint. If you had agreed to my perfectly reasonable request about posting your email contents last night then I think perhaps this would all be over by now.

The fact of the matter is that because you are/were named as a Dr. by an organisation you yourself regard as experts in their field, so you can hardly blame others for talking about it. The fact that others outside of the BCSE forum have already made videos about it shows how this has been picked up on elsewhere already. Unless of course you think ICR got your title wrong from watching "atheist" YouTube videos? The fact that forum members and others presumed ICR knew what they were doing is obviously a mistake.

I will post something this morning and make it plain that the Dr reference on the ICR site is/was ICR incompetence and that you clearly state that you have no idea why they did this.

I think you may have quite a trail of corrections to follow all over the web asking people to make amendments, all leading back to the ICR blooper.

BTW Have you asked for a full apology and explanation to be posted on the ICR site? Or is that just being whitewashed over?

If you change your mind and want access to the forum to defend yourself any further then please just ask. Otherwise I regard this matter as closed.


Forum members - If there is any other evidence bearing on this matter please post it now.

This thread will be frozen if things get out of hand.

Thanks
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:19 pm

Paul Garner has taken exception to my suggestion that the reference to him in the ICR "FAST" document was edited to refer to him as "Dr Garner" when he graduated. How this can be regarded as derogatory I do not know - most people gaining a Ph.D. would be glad to have the fact acknowledged on web pages referring to them.

As for any imputation that he was claiming such a title erroneously, again I do not see how this can be concluded because in that posting on this site I pointed out that it was the only reference to him as "Dr" in six pages of Google entries - clearly the ICR reference was a one-off and it was not unreasonable to assume that this was because he had just gained a Ph.D.

In fact, I was wrong on two counts. Firstly, it appears that the ICR article has been referring to him as Dr Garner since at least 28 September 2012 on a page containing a copyright notice dated 2010 http://web.archive.org/web/20110928040106/http://www.icr.org/research/fast/.
Secondly, and unsurprisingly in view of the time the ICR's error has been visible and uncorrected, there are other references to doctoral status from his fellow creationists that I missed the first time round. Two which I have discovered are:
Something to Talk About
24 November 2011 via Mobile
Another interview completed for the podcast! Just got off the phone with Dr Paul Garner who talked about the geological evidence for creationism - fascinating stuff!

https://www.facebook.com/somethingpodcast and
You seem to still be under the misguided notion that there are no young-earth creationists who are fellows in scientific organizations. Once again, I am happy to educate you on this issue. Here are three young-earth creationists I know off the top of my head who are fellows in scientific organizations:

Dr. Paul Garner, fellow of the Geological Society of London

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=6790
If Mr. Garner still feels, despite my explanation, that in compounding these errors I have in some way maligned him I am, of course, happy to apologise.
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:54 pm

[/quote]
https://www.facebook.com/somethingpodcast and
You seem to still be under the misguided notion that there are no young-earth creationists who are fellows in scientific organizations. Once again, I am happy to educate you on this issue. Here are three young-earth creationists I know off the top of my head who are fellows in scientific organizations:

Dr. Paul Garner, fellow of the Geological Society of London



For the record the Geological Society's online database of fellows does not list Paul Garner as a fellow. Check here at http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Membership/Fe ... ed+Kingdom

I am no longer either a committee member of the BCSE or active in the organisation.

However, it does appear that I have not been sufficently precise in detailing Mr Garner's two qualifications and personally apologise to him according.

Mr Garner can, of course, handle the creationist movement as, when and where it erroneously describes him as "Dr".
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby cathy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:36 pm

Mr Garner can, of course, handle the creationist movement as, when and where it erroneously describes him as "Dr".


Ah it would appear he has detailed the whole thing on his blog
http://www.thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/

Where he helpfully points out that
The claim that I call myself “Dr Garner” is likewise erroneous, and the blogger provides no evidence to support it. I have categorically never called myself “Dr Garner” and I do not have a PhD, earned or otherwise. I am at a loss as to how the blogger came to this conclusion, especially since my credentials (as they were in March 2008) are accurately reported on the very first slide of the presentation that she is seeking to critique, namely “BSc, FGS”. (I have since also obtained the MSc in Geoscience).


But neglects to point out - on his blog - that the evidence comes from the various creationist institutions such as ICR etc!

Now I'm not sure if these are the e mails that Paul is forbidding Mark to post but they are clearly there on Paul's blog!!! As they are now in the public domain, namely on Pauls blog, I guess it is ok and not a breach of trust to copy them here. I have not seen the originals anyway but these do smack of the burning martyr complex of your average creationist.
You are now seeking (without any evidence at all) to pass the buck onto ICR. The fact is that members of your forum plainly stated that I was falsely claiming to have a doctorate and that I had misrepresented the nature of my first degree, the former evidently based on hearsay from an internet atheist. Only later was an error in my title on a single ICR web page brought into the discussion, with no evidence that was the source of the internet atheist’s error and despite the fact that ICR made that error in good faith and very quickly corrected it as soon as it was drawn to its attention.

Your suggested solution to these aspersions upon my personal honesty and integrity (namely to blame ICR) is unconscionable and clearly intended to divert attention from the mistakes and worse of your own forum members. It is one thing for ICR to have made a simple error in calling me “Dr” and quite another thing for those associated with BCSE to publicly claim that I am wilfully misrepresenting my qualifications, a very serious allegation as I have repeatedly said, and one that warrants a full aas I have repeatedly said, and one that warrants a full apology and retraction.





Now I'm not quite sure about the statement 'pass the buck' on to the ICR!!! Or why he thinks it is wrong to blame ICR!! ICR are to blame Paul, I hate to point that out! They are the ones claiming you are a PhD!

Now the ICR is a leading creationist research (ha ha ha ha - well loosest possible interpretation of the word research) organisation. One of THE leading creationist 'research' institutions. They have clearly made the mistake, therefore they ARE to blame. NOT bcse, who should assume that leading creationist 'research' organisation should really get the qualifications of their leading creationist 'researchers' correct. Therefore there is no reason at all for bcse to need to apologise. They merely repeated an error made by Paul peers in the creation 'science' industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They should of course state that they merely repeated the ICR claims and that there is no other means of checking creationist qualifications really.

I am now hoping to read on Paul's blog some similarly stern e mails of a similar tone to the ICR!! They've been very naughty leading people to believe Paul is a Dr and besmirching his good name by making him look like a liar (tho hasn't set in stone already done that? I think so). Of course I'd also be looking for some sternly worded emails to the very naughty members of ECG who called him Dr as well.

Now if these aren't forthcoming asap on his blog then I really will be forced to think him a tad hypocritical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Paul Garner mysteriously disappearing?

Postby cathy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:49 pm

Oh and just in case Paul is unsure what to send to ICR and the various other creationist organisations I guess this from his blog would be useful. Yes from Paul's blog a copy of his sternly worded e mail.
Do you not think that the BCSE needs to take responsibility for potentially defamatory comments posted on its public forum, by moderating/deleting them and offering apologies where appropriate, rather than leaving a decision about how to respond up to individuals?



Now just to assist Paul
Do you not think that the ICR needs to take responsibility for giving the false information about me that led to potentially defamatory comments posted on its public forum, by offering very public apologies where appropriate, rather than leaving a decision about how to respond up to individuals?

I guess it would also be helpful if Paul could let us know on his blog that such e mails have been sent.

Now I'm not too sure whether the blog is defamatory to bcse members, who as far as I can see were merely repeating claims of a doctorate made by ICR and querying where the doctorate may have come from. Will Paul therefore be moderating/deleting them?
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