Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

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Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:33 pm

It looks as if Answers in Genesis is becoming desperate. As Lenny Flank predicted a few years ago its "Creation Museum" would advertise to the world that creationists are morons. It seems to have amply succeeded in doing so with visitor numbers continue to fall.

So Scam and hsi pals have come up with a new ploy to get numbers up, offering attractions that have nothing at all to do with creationism - sky lines and sky bridges. Why anyone would turn up in the middle of flyover country to use these attractions is quite beyond me by the fiendish plot seems to be to get customers who might suddenly want to see the creationist crapola and suddenly become fundies. AiG is suggesting that corporations will want to use the new attractions. Yer, really? It's an exceedingly bad idea to mix personal religious or political views with business. It turns would be customers and clients off in droves and many staff hate it.

Huff Post as an article on the new plans: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/0 ... ir=Science

But it all looks to be part of a bigger problem. AiG is changing tactics and is now promoting its cretinism as "plausible" rather than fact, presumably on the grounds that it will not turn so many people off.

it seems that AiG has deep seated problems. It has been losing money, gates at the "creation museum" are falling and the "Ark Encounter" project looks dead in the water. Things are so bad that it now looks to me moving out of the cretinism business to make ends meet. Look behind it all and I suspect we'll find that creationism itself is dying in the USA and Scam and his pals know it. Strange, isn't it, that Scam suddenly finds the ability to compromise when "jobs for the boys" (his family) are at stake. He didn't feel it necessary when he split with his long standing colleagues at what is now Creationism Ministries International. They just got shit on by him.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:05 am

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

http://nky.cincinnati.com/comments/arti ... -some-zip-
Maybe it's just me, but I cannot see under this article the comment by Kurt Percy that Ken Ham is highlighting.

Ham thinks he and his facility deserve an apology - even though Mr Percy did not pro-actively attack the Creation Museum in a high profile way so much as react to a local newspaper report that it is now incorporating zip lines and dragon exhibits (which is suggestive of a theme park as much as of a museum). Mr Percy's viewpoint that the Creation Museum should not exist appears to be a personal one. The quoted comment does not claim to speak for the organisation he works for.

I doubt that Ham will get an apology. Except possibly on the 'handouts from the state of Kentucky' - if indeed Mr Percy was mistaken or rushing to judgment on that point.

By the way, Ham refers to a page on the Creation Museum website. Interestingly the page does contain this link: http://www.cincinnatiusa.com/Attraction ... ctionID=20
but for some unaccountable reason OMITS this more significant one (might that be intentional): http://www.cincymuseum.org/

But it looks to me like a bit of a storm in a teacup, this.

Though I've just seen an atheist blog on the same issue:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... hristians/
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:49 am

"naturalism is atheism". Guess who, in his blog post for 7 June.
http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

And by sheer coincidence (maybe): http://gracesalt.wordpress.com/2013/06/ ... /#comments (I commented by email early on Friday evening UK time, just after receiving the email notification, and before catching up with Ham's blog which probably appeared a bit earlier in the day)
'Naturalism IS atheism'.

NO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
Many scientists who follow a religion adhere to naturalism in their science.

Typing 'IS' instead of 'is' doesn't help a YEC if they are wrong in the first place.

Atheism is naturalistic. But YECs hate naturalism too, even though a god could act 'naturally' some of the time.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:58 am

Not at all surprising. AiG is clearly developing an addiction to big capital projects which are great for organisations of that size in terms of cash flow and keeping people employed even if not directly involved in the capital project. Unfortunately its a very difficult, to nigh impossible, to maintain a perpetual string of such projects.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:35 am

it seems that AiG has deep seated problems. It has been losing money, gates at the "creation museum" are falling and the "Ark Encounter" project looks dead in the water.


Don't worry, the Lord will provide as he clearly only blesses young Earth creationists who uphold his word from the very first verse.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:49 pm

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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:
it seems that AiG has deep seated problems. It has been losing money, gates at the "creation museum" are falling and the "Ark Encounter" project looks dead in the water.


Don't worry, the Lord will provide as he clearly only blesses young Earth creationists who uphold his word from the very first verse.


Yer, Answers in Genesis can pray all it likes for a miracle but as it has no members, not many will be praying.

Or, to translate into economics - traditionally Calvinistic churches have frequently been funded and are owned by the congregation which appoints the minister as they feel fit. If things go wrong and the church has financial difficulties they can always fire the pastor and find someone to sort it out. If more money is needed, well, it's for a church they already own so, in a sense, they are protecting their own investments.

Scam may call AiG a ministry but he has no congregation to call upon to bail it it. Those who originally put the money up for his "creation museum" have no financial interest in it as they don't own any of it. Nor can they sack Scam and appoint someone else. AiG is a family controlled fiefdom.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:58 am

Look behind it all and I suspect we'll find that creationism itself is dying in the USA and Scam and his pals know it.


That's not what I see happening on the ground over there Roger.

Ham constantly posts photgraphs on his Facebook page of huge crowds attending his events. People there are still flocking to hear him. There are constant attempts continually by creationists to have YECism taught as science in many states (Louisiana is a case in point). I remember Wesley Ellsberry once saying "we are simply putting out fires" in relation to stamping out YECism.

So I wouldn't be so sure. That figure of 46% of people in the US being young Earth creationists has hardly changed over the last 20 years or so. That extrapolates to well over 100 million in the US alone, surely a travesty in this day and age ? That fact in itself is deeply disturbing, in my opinion. Something is seriously wrong with science education in the US.

As I've constantly said, how and why the young Earth creationists have gotten this far and why so many well educated (and in some cases very well educated) people are championing it's cause is beyond me. I think part of the problem is the scientific community has chosen to ignore them for far too long (hoping they would simply go away) and it's only really within the past few years that anyone of any signioficance has taken any notice.

No, until that figure of 46% starts to fall I think we can safely say YECism is alive and well in the US and shows no sign of gowing away anytime soon.

I think Ham's problem may be that people visit the "creation Museum" once and than don't bother again. I remember Jason Rosenhouse making this point when the museum opened and he does seem to have been proven correct, judging by what has been happening recently.
Last edited by Peter Henderson on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:08 am

P.S and the US creationism problem has got SFA to do with Northern Ireland either. Rather, it's the other way around. Creationism was never a majot problem in churches here until AiG organised in the UK in the late 1990's.

The next big thing the fundees have up their sleeve is the pro life nonsense. Be warned. I can see a major assult on uK abortion legisalation over the next few years (especily with the rise in support for UKIP).

The situation in both parts of Ireland is appalling. The pro life lobby isn't going to relinquish control anytime soon, despite the Savita Halappanavar tragedy.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:17 am

and a much wider problem may be the so called "home schooling" fraternity in the US. It seems to be a huge movement over there. Surely, kids deserve a proper education, good schools or bad. I'm not sure how the programme works, but I would have thought that children being "educated" by parents who are not qualified teachers (or even from a science background for that matter) is surely a huge problem.

It needs to be very closely looked at in the UK as it also seems to be a growing problem here.

Am I correct in thinking that this is the aim of the Christian reconstructionists/dominionists i.e. to abolish public schools and have every child home schooled by the mother ? I'm sure I read that somewhere.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:50 am

Well, they aimed for a hinterland with 2/3 of the population of the USA within 1 hour's flight. That's around 200,000,000 people. In three years they had about 1,000,000 visitors - that's about 0.15% per year fancying that flight. Our local museum has a hinterland of about 200,000. I think if it only got an equivalent half dozen visitors per week, the council would have closed it years ago!
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:08 am

Peter Henderson wrote:That's not what I see happening on the ground over there Roger.

Ham constantly posts photgraphs on his Facebook page of huge crowds attending his events. People there are still flocking to hear him. There are constant attempts continually by creationists to have YECism taught as science in many states (Louisiana is a case in point). I remember Wesley Ellsberry once saying "we are simply putting out fires" in relation to staping out YECism.

So I wouldn't be so sure. That figure of 46% of people in the US being young Earth creationists has hardly changed over the last 20 years or so. That extrapolates to well over 100 million in the US alone, surely a travesty in this day and age ? That fact in itself is deeply disturbing, in my opinion. Something is seriously wrong with science education.

As I've constantly said, how and why the young Earth creationists have gotten this far and why so many well educated (and in some cases very well educated) people are championing it's cause is beyond me. I think part of the problem is the scientific community has chosen to ignore them for far too long (hoping they would simply go away) and it's only really within the past few years that anyone of any signioficance has taken any notice.

No, until that figure of 46% starts to fall I think we can say YECism is alive and well in the US and shows no sign of gowing away anytime soon.

I think Ham's problem may be that people visit the "creation Museum" once and than don't bother again. I remember Jason Rosenhouse making this point when the museum opened and he does seem to have been proven correct, judging by what has been happening recently.


Yes, but don't forget that the NCSE has switched strategy to include fighting climate change denial. That suggests to me that it recognises its main battle with creationism is turning in its favour and it can now afford to turn its very limited resources to other ends.

Secondly the fundamentalists have gone as far as they can go. Membership of Southern Baptist churches is, overall, declining precipitously; it is the largest Protestant group in the USA. The fundamentalists are becoming politically isolated as demographics move against them and public opinion turns against their intolerance and politicisation. The young, in particular, are abandoning religion in droves. Fundamentalist religion that turns people off in droves is a religion committing suicide. Fundamentalism has nowhere to go. In any event, the political power and influence of the fundamentalists probably peaked in the 1980s.

The attempt to make creationism "respectable" - Intelligent Design, has failed, with little more than a windbag lawyer, Casey Luskin, now acting as its public face. Science isn't listening to him. He's irrelevant.

This is not a minor issue. The Discovery Institute has failed to convince opinion formers and shakers and movers. Don't forget it set out to socially re-engineer society along right wing evangelical lines. Teaching creationism in state schools in the USA still remains, some two decades on, illegal and the Discovery Institute remains about as effective as a dog turd at social re-engineering. Moreover, it hasn't contributed one iota to scientific knowledge or understanding. Even its "star crackpot scientists", such as messrs Behe and Dembski, have retired back into the obscurity they thoroughly deserve. I suspect that if anyone were to dig around a bit, they would find the Discovery Institute a now much shrunken organisation.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:36 am

Peter Henderson wrote:and a much wider problem may be the so called "home schooling" fraternity in the US. It seems to be a huge movement over there. Surely, kids deserve a proper education, good schools or bad. I'm not sure how the programme works, but I would have thought that children being "educated" by parents who are not qualified teachers (or even from a science background for that matter) is surely a huge problem.

It needs to be very closely looked at in the UK as it also seems to be a growing problem here.

Am I correct in thinking that this is the aim of the Christian reconstructionists/dominionists i.e. to abolish public schools and have every child home schooled by the mother ? I'm sure I read that somewhere.


For some, home schooling works, for others it's a shabby third rate alternative to a decent school. However, it seems to me that the fundamentalists are shooting themselves in the foot over it, creating a separate society isolated from the mainstream and therefore with no influence over it. Good!


I suspect that the fundamentalists have a bigger problem with home schooling than they (dimly) realise. They can't teach their children effectively because they lack an education themselves. Fundamentalism is largely the product of the poorer and more backward parts of the USA - the deep south and rural and small town flyover country - and, all too often, basically a working class religion. The old working classes are dying, replaced in many areas by immigrant labour which isn't going to turn to fundamentalism or vote Republican. (It's a matter of deep concern to the GOP in Texas.) In that sense, home schooling is just a route to perpetuating isolation and low education standards, potentially locking the fundamentalists into permanent relative poverty and isolation.

I'm somewhat reminded of William Jennings Bryan, three times presidential candidate who was, in many was, a progressive. Ultimately he lost because political and economic power was shifting from rural America to the newly industrialised cities. He got outnumbered and out organised. He failed to recognise demographics and economics were moving against him.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:31 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:Well, they aimed for a hinterland with 2/3 of the population of the USA within 1 hour's flight. That's around 200,000,000 people. In three years they had about 1,000,000 visitors - that's about 0.15% per year fancying that flight. Our local museum has a hinterland of about 200,000. I think if it only got an equivalent half dozen visitors per week, the council would have closed it years ago!


Scam's "creation museum" appears to be seriously cheap to run. It has no research staff at all, the exhibits require very little maintenance or regular replacement, there is no debt to service, many of the staff are volunteers and it is probably exempt from a pile of taxes of various sorts. Meeting health and safety requirements would not be costly. Moreover, it undoubtedly has a lot of sideline income from sales of food and drink, creationist books, DVDs, etc. and donations.

Compare that to somewhere like Chester Zoo, with some 7,000 animals to care for. The daily logistics of feeding them, with huge variations in dietary needs, must be mind numbing. Then there is the daily chore of disposal of the waste they produce (labour intensive, to say the least). The zoo needs to employ specialist biologists and vets to ensure the animals are healthy and can successfully breed. Animals have to be exchanged with other zoos. Health and safety is a seriously costly business as many of the animals would otherwise attack each other, the visitors or the keepers or run or fly away out of captivity. (They can spread diseases to humans and each other as well.) The animals have to be kept free (as far as is possible) of disease and stress and even in some cases hand reared. Finally very extensive records of animals need to be kept.

The local heritage railway near my has some 12 miles of track, including cuttings, embankments, bridges, drainage and fencing, to maintain. It has several stations on its books and the cost of restoring, servicing and maintaining its fleet of obsolete and aging steam engines is astronomical. Its workshops are major engineering facilities by local standards. All are required to meet It a plethora of safety standards. It has a complex Victorian signalling system that also must meet stringent safety standards. On top of which it has a fleet of old railway carriages to restore, service and maintain. Yet it covers its costs with around 200,000 visitors a year at ticket prices comparable to Scam's "museum".

Reading between the lines, I suspect that the finances of Scam's" museum" are much worse than AiG is suggesting and the visitor numbers are somewhat fanciful. They may well reflect a lot of tickets sold at heavily discounted prices.
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Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:46 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:Am I correct in thinking that this is the aim of the Christian reconstructionists/dominionists i.e. to abolish public schools and have every child home schooled by the mother ? I'm sure I read that somewhere.


There's a whole lot of Americans who believe state funded education is an evil that should be abolished. Americans don't believe in taxation with representation. IIRC "Christian Economics" nutter Gary North wants public funding of education to be abolished. It wouldn't be costly anyway if he had is way as he thinks children who are lippy to their parents should be stoned to death. Apparently stoning is the preferred method of execution as it causes less stress on those doing it than beheading with a sword. Nice man. North is a reconstructionist and son in law of Rousas Rushdoony. Howie Ahmanson who helps fund the Discovery Institute also thinks children should be executed for being lippy to their parents but thinks it's not really as bad as people think because two witnesses are needed to the act of being lippy - so not so many will be killed. Obviously a more reasonable and pleasant man than Gary North.
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