Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:Compare that to somewhere like Chester Zoo, with some 7,000 animals to care for. The daily logistics of feeding them, with huge variations in dietary needs, must be mind numbing. Then there is the daily chore of disposal of the waste they produce (labour intensive, to say the least). The zoo needs to employ specialist biologists and vets to ensure the animals are healthy and can successfully breed. Animals have to be exchanged with other zoos. Health and safety is a seriously costly business as many of the animals would otherwise attack each other, the visitors or the keepers or run or fly away out of captivity. (They can spread diseases to humans and each other as well.) The animals have to be kept free (as far as is possible) of disease and stress and even in some cases hand reared. Finally very extensive records of animals need to be kept.
I think that, in and amongst, you've just sunk the Ark myth. Ham's forthcoming version, with plastic livestock, might not have quite the same problems though. :-)
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:55 pm

From one or two blogs I've seen recently, it's clear that the US home-schooling movement extends much wider than young Earth creationists withdrawing their kids from state or private schools because they might get 'brainwashed' with 'evolutionism' in science classes. I guess that most home-schooler parents are probably rather religious/right-wing/traditionalist/conservative/suspicious of 'big' government but they are not all hardline YECs. And SOME US home-schooling is by parents who believe in evolution but live in areas where it won't be taught, or will be taught as being unscientific, in the schools.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8388
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:59 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:I think that, in and amongst, you've just sunk the Ark myth. Ham's forthcoming version, with plastic livestock, might not have quite the same problems though. :-)
I wonder if the reason AiG is losing money is a result of the problems at Scam's cretinist museum. The public turns, up, sees its a load of crap and tells their fellow churches goers accordingly. Bang goes AiG's credibility and down go the sales of its DVDs, journals and whatever crapola as well as donations to the Ark Encounter project.

Well, that's my speculation if not hopes.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:16 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:From one or two blogs I've seen recently, it's clear that the US home-schooling movement extends much wider than young Earth creationists withdrawing their kids from state or private schools because they might get 'brainwashed' with 'evolutionism' in science classes. I guess that most home-schooler parents are probably rather religious/right-wing/traditionalist/conservative/suspicious of 'big' government but they are not all hardline YECs. And SOME US home-schooling is by parents who believe in evolution but live in areas where it won't be taught, or will be taught as being unscientific, in the schools.


There's also a much more prosaic reasons for home schooling - many state schools in the USA are pretty dreadful and not just because they are in rough or poor areas. There's a long history of school budgets being slashed following reductions in property taxes which are used to fund them. Secondly, there's real racial and political discrimination in allocating funds between schools. In Texas it's typically centred on denying or reducing funding specifically to areas where there are a large number of Democratic voters (read Black and Hispanic people), a problem made worse by the endemic corruption of gerrymandering. The concepts of civic pride and responsibility, if not public duty, do not run deep in the American mindset. See Los Angeles to get the point.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:43 pm

Further comment, including about how science museums get new exhibits and displays presenting recent findings, whereas creation museums seem to 'diversify' into zip wires and dragons:
http://www.skepticblog.org/2013/06/12/z ... -con-jobs/
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8388
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: CMI and home-schooling

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:57 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:From one or two blogs I've seen recently, it's clear that the US home-schooling movement extends much wider than young Earth creationists withdrawing their kids from state or private schools because they might get 'brainwashed' with 'evolutionism' in science classes. I guess that most home-schooler parents are probably rather religious/right-wing/traditionalist/conservative/suspicious of 'big' government but they are not all hardline YECs. And SOME US home-schooling is by parents who believe in evolution but live in areas where it won't be taught, or will be taught as being unscientific, in the schools.


There's also a much more prosaic reasons for home schooling - many state schools in the USA are pretty dreadful and not just because they are in rough or poor areas. There's a long history of school budgets being slashed following reductions in property taxes which are used to fund them. Secondly, there's real racial and political discrimination in allocating funds between schools. In Texas it's typically centred on denying or reducing funding specifically to areas where there are a large number of Democratic voters (read Black and Hispanic people), a problem made worse by the endemic corruption of gerrymandering. The concepts of civic pride and responsibility, if not public duty, do not run deep in the American mindset. See Los Angeles to get the point.



Creation Ministries International are having a whinge about Biologos and their approach to origins in home-schooling textbooks and other materials:
http://creation.com/ct-evolution-textbooks
CMI state: "One of the most serious responsibilities of a parent is to evangelize his or her children. In many cases this has not been happening, so a major part of a child’s education (whether the parent is homeschooling, or supplementing public or Christian school), should be to learn to trust the Bible as God’s word".
Therefore CMI wants kids to be told about evolution by Christians who hate the very idea (CMI) rather than by Christians (Biologos) who think it is a valid theory which explains how God brought the human race into existence.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8388
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby cathy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Creation Ministries International are having a whinge about Biologos and their approach to origins in home-schooling textbooks and other materials:
http://creation.com/ct-evolution-textbooks
CMI state: "One of the most serious responsibilities of a parent is to evangelize his or her children. In many cases this has not been happening, so a major part of a child’s education (whether the parent is homeschooling, or supplementing public or Christian school), should be to learn to trust the Bible as God’s word".
Therefore CMI wants kids to be told about evolution by Christians who hate the very idea (CMI) rather than by Christians (Biologos) who think it is a valid theory which explains how God brought the human race into existence.

It would have been a funny read if it weren't so tragic and it didn't link to another section on their website.
•Welcome to the Parents’ Corner on CREATION.com!
The section that makes you realise how important bcse is in reality cos while you can laugh at the adults the poor kids still have rights to learn that are being abused.

I notice the article has the obligatory quote by Richard Dawkins when they say even the atheists agree with us how to read the bible - blind to the fact he wants to kill Christianity stone dead and they're handing him the weapons of mass destruction to do so. Still liked the comments and paranoia stuff about how nasty evolution is everywhere even in kids programmes ha ha (thats cos its ubiquitously true therefore difficult to avoid!!!). Evolution even crops up/gets a mention at the end of Dan Browns latest book btw yay (yeah I know he's not a purveyor of great literature but its a page turner when you're feeling brain dead, with little thinking required and a stupid ending).

Not sure if there will be any evolution in it but probably will be, interesting looking programme called Secret Life of Cats tonight BBC at nine.
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Brian Jordan » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:01 pm

cathy wrote: interesting looking programme called Secret Life of Cats tonight BBC at nine.
Indeed - they say cats are evolving! With the rise of the cat-flap, they've evolved to nick each other's food instead of hunting! Cue creationist rubbish about loss of DNA...
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:35 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
cathy wrote: interesting looking programme called Secret Life of Cats tonight BBC at nine.
Indeed - they say cats are evolving! With the rise of the cat-flap, they've evolved to nick each other's food instead of hunting! Cue creationist rubbish about loss of DNA...


What a dreadful programme! The stuff about domestic cats "evolving" appears to be utter rubbish. It also ignored that cats have "neutral" patches on their territory where they "greet" other cats. I've had cats that studiously ignore neighbors' cats when they break in an eat their food. It also ignores that many female (and some male cats) bring home live and uninjured animals as "presents" for their owners (or even other cats). A pal of mine ended up with a plague of mice in his house.

Pray, just how are domestic cats supposed to "evolve" when they are not subject to natural selection? Moreover, most domestic cats are not even subject to selective breeding. 93% of domestic cats in the UK are Heinz 57s.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby cathy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:19 pm

Pray, just how are domestic cats supposed to "evolve" when they are not subject to natural selection? Moreover, most domestic cats are not even subject to selective breeding. 93% of domestic cats in the UK are Heinz 57s.

Maybe not so much now when most are neutered but one interesting fact was the solicitation (or was it non solicitation) purr when they wanted something which was in same pitch as crying baby. Which clearly humans have evolved to respond to by giving care
cathy
 
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:27 pm

cathy wrote:Maybe not so much now when most are neutered but one interesting fact was the solicitation (or was it non solicitation) purr when they wanted something which was in same pitch as crying baby. Which clearly humans have evolved to respond to by giving care
Careful - you could be quotemined as saying humans have evolved to look after cats! (I think it was long solicitation, btw. How it's distinguished from interminable demand, I don't know. :D )
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: cats in Surrey

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:26 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Brian Jordan wrote:
cathy wrote: interesting looking programme called Secret Life of Cats tonight BBC at nine.
Indeed - they say cats are evolving! With the rise of the cat-flap, they've evolved to nick each other's food instead of hunting! Cue creationist rubbish about loss of DNA...


What a dreadful programme! The stuff about domestic cats "evolving" appears to be utter rubbish. It also ignored that cats have "neutral" patches on their territory where they "greet" other cats. I've had cats that studiously ignore neighbors' cats when they break in an eat their food. It also ignores that many female (and some male cats) bring home live and uninjured animals as "presents" for their owners (or even other cats). A pal of mine ended up with a plague of mice in his house.

Pray, just how are domestic cats supposed to "evolve" when they are not subject to natural selection? Moreover, most domestic cats are not even subject to selective breeding. 93% of domestic cats in the UK are Heinz 57s.


Eamonn Shute made a similar comment to Roger regarding claimed domestic moggy 'evolution' here last night (it passed the time but the science was a bit flabby):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview ... ad=8431328
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8388
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:24 pm

cathy wrote:
Pray, just how are domestic cats supposed to "evolve" when they are not subject to natural selection? Moreover, most domestic cats are not even subject to selective breeding. 93% of domestic cats in the UK are Heinz 57s.

Maybe not so much now when most are neutered but one interesting fact was the solicitation (or was it non solicitation) purr when they wanted something which was in same pitch as crying baby. Which clearly humans have evolved to respond to by giving care


Cheetahs purr as well. In fact most if not all cat species purr. To demonstrate that domestic cats purr at the pitch they do because of evolution should be tested against the pitch of African wild cats. That's easily done.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:27 am

Roger Stanyard wrote:Cheetahs pure as well. In fact most if not all cat species pure. To demonstrate that domestic cats purr at the pitch they do because of evolution should be tested against the pitch of African wild cats. That's easily done.
You'd need a species of the same size, too, assuming that frequency varies with size (of species rather than individual). Ideally, a graph of frequency v size, in fact. The argument also assumes that domestication has had a significant effect. The ease with which cats go feral makes me doubt that. As does the similarity of British wild cats to moggies.
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: Answers in Genesis - Desperate Measures

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:00 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:Cheetahs pure as well. In fact most if not all cat species pure. To demonstrate that domestic cats purr at the pitch they do because of evolution should be tested against the pitch of African wild cats. That's easily done.
You'd need a species of the same size, too, assuming that frequency varies with size (of species rather than individual). Ideally, a graph of frequency v size, in fact. The argument also assumes that domestication has had a significant effect. The ease with which cats go feral makes me doubt that. As does the similarity of British wild cats to moggies.


The African wild cat is the same species of the domestic cat. Some people keep African wild cats as domestic pets. Not much different in temperament to domestic cats but very intolerant of other cats. The BBC programme also seemed to get the cat psychology experiment wrong. It compared a mother-baby relationship to that of the relationships between adult dogs and adult cats to their owners. Had they compared owner-kitten relationships they may have got a different result.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Free For All

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron