Philip Bell oversteps the mark

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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:38 am

cathy wrote:Well Peter it looks like its been asked and answered?
http://creation.com/from-fables-to-truth"

Philip are you stating categorically that you cannot be a Christian and born again/saved if you do accept evolution and a 4.55 billion year old Earth?

What about new Christians for whom it is the deal breaker - who can accept Christ but NEVER creationism? Would they point hem in the direction of theistic evolution? Or watch them walk away?

Or existing Christians for whom it is also the deal breaker. Who can and have willingly accepted Christ but will never accept creationism?

Would they prefer a person is saved and a theistic evolutionist, or an Atheist if they rejected YECism ?

I ask because it has become an issue in our church with several people leaving after a creationist pastor arrived. And many more unhappy at his creationism.

Philip Bell responds
The short answer to your question is a definite "No. I am not stating (nor seeking to imply) that a person cannot be a true Christian while believing in evolution and a billions-of-years old earth." On the contrary, I often spell this out in my talks using my own personal testimony. I was once a committed Christian who held to theistic evolution; I was sincere but quite wrong, unaware of my 'blessed inconsistency'.

Hypothetically, if a person to whom I was witnessing said "I'll only accept Christ if I can keep my belief in evolution" (or words to that effect), this would indicate that she was merely considering adopting Christianity as a matter of rational, intellectual thought; but one cannot ignore the vital spiritual dimension. No true convert to Christ comes merely by a decision of his/her will (see John 1:13) but under deep conviction of personal sin and the need of salvation from sin's penalty and power. To put it another way, in coming to God, the pathway is repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and there can be no deal brokering with Him!

Whether potential Christian converts or existing Christians, Christ is the Truth. Therefore, a sign of true faith will inevitably and inexorably mean a move towards truth in a person's life (this being the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, John 16:13). If big-picture evolution is in fact false, a true believer will be exercised about this by the Holy Spirit Himself, increasingly, until his/her will is brought into submission to God's (c.f. 2 Corinthians 10:5).

Ultimately, salvation is not of man, but is of/from the Lord (see Jonah 2:9) so it is not really possible to answer your last hypothetical question. Is a person who is truly saved (having called with genuine faith upon the Lord, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13) but believes in error better off than an God-rejecting atheist? Without a doubt; there is no starker difference than that between eternal life and the punishment of hell! But true Christians increasingly realise that they are under 'new ownership' (they are no longer their own; 1 Corinthians 3:16) and that a major purpose of their existence is consequently to glorify God (1 Corinthians 6:20); it is the Christian's duty to avoid and shun that which is false, as this article sought to demonstrate.



Basically it seems to boil down to the holy spirit will tell you evolution is false. If the holy spirit hasn't told you evolution is false, you won't move towards truth (creationist version not real version) and you aren't really a christian? Thats my reading, so I guess as the holy spirit hasn't warned you and Michael off evolution you're in trouble tsk tsk. I'm guessing the holy spirit is what we call the holy ghost?

Who'd have thunk the holy spirit would be such a liar.



Well noticed. Bell should have written a much clearer and much less strident article, then. His comments now do not directly address much of what he WROTE; it's almost as if he has forgotten his own words.
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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:26 am

Bell clearly believes that there are SOME unsaved people in churches who lack the Holy Spirit and who are also false teachers, and that evolutionary science is a false teaching and a 'fable' because it does not fit with a literal reading of Genesis. His answer does not change that.
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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:37 am

Well Peter it looks like its been asked and answered?


Actually Cathy, I'm not sure Bell has answered the question. He's given the standard response I've already had from Garner and others and merely skirted around the issue.

The bible says nothing about any modern scientific theory, and none of those verses he's quoted are referring to evolution.

I'm wondering if Phoebe is the Phoebe I encountered on Premier (aka Caral James) ? She appears to have been reading my posts.
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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:04 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:Bell clearly believes that there are SOME unsaved people in churches who lack the Holy Spirit and who are also false teachers, and that evolutionary science is a false teaching and a 'fable' because it does not fit with a literal reading of Genesis. His answer does not change that.


Does that mean Philip Bell's qualifications and scientific experience are essentially worthless ?

http://creation.com/philip-bell

Philip is a scientist and educator who lives and works in the United Kingdom. He studied biology and geology at the University of Wales (Swansea), graduating in zoology in 1989. For nine years he worked at a cancer research unit in chemosensitivity testing. During the 1990s, he was also a member of the Postgraduate School of Medicine, Bath University and (co-)authored a number of papers in secular medical journals (see longer bio for details).

Philip became a secondary school science teacher in the late 1990s, but has worked full time in Creation ministry since 2001, speaking on Bible/science topics in churches, schools and universities. Since January 2007, he has been CEO of Creation Ministries International (UK/Europe) and is a contributor to Creation magazine, the Journal of Creation and CMI’s website.

Philip trusted in Christ as a child and was raised in a strong Christian home to believe the Bible from the very first verse, but compromised with secular beliefs about origins in his late teens. During the course of his later, graduate studies he rejected evolution/millions of years on both scientific and biblical grounds. He came again to see the Bible as God's completely trustworthy, infallible Word on scientific and historical matters—not just matters of Christian faith and conduct. Philip is married with five children—three grown up and two home-schooled—and is a strong advocate of Christian education.


He must've indoctrinated a few kids with evolution in his time.
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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:22 am

Message submitted to CMI via feedback:

Philip: I don't think you've given Pheobe a satisfactory answer to her question.

Imagine you're witnessing and you encounter this type of person in the course of your evangelism. Just exactly how would you respond ? How would you point a person who point blankly refuses to accept young Earth creationism to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ ? What would you say to that person ? Would it not be better that they are a Christian and a theistic evolutionist (or progressive creationist etc.) than an Atheist condemned to Hell and an eternity of everlasting torment.?

I know you've quoted several passages of scripture in your answer above, but none of these are referring to evolution (or any other modern scientific theory for that matter).

I would appreciate a straight answer to this question as it appears you're saying that Christians who reject young Earth creationism aren't truly saved.
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Re: Philip Bell oversteps the mark

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:26 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:Does that mean Philip Bell's qualifications and scientific experience are essentially worthless ?
No. Prof Andy McIntosh says that scientific qualifications are worthless if the holder rejects belief in a literal reading of the Bible. So Bell's degrees will have been rendered worthy when he rejected evolution.
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
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