Give it up, McIntosh

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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:35 am

cathy wrote:Is McIntosh still teaching at Leeds?
He's retired, as far as I know. (I think he mentioned it on the Brum Sceptics DVD) He may have some residual connection, I suppose, but I imagine they'd have been glad to see the back of him. No more embarrassing disclaimers needed that way!
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Re: Andy McIntosh

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:26 pm

I've just listened to the second McIntosh-Asher debate from last weekend - "The second of two debates in which Young Earth Creationist Andy McIntosh debates paleontologist Robert Asher. Andy responds to a number of questions left hanging over from the previous show. Both are Christians and give their differing views on how the Genesis stories of Adam and Eve and death and suffering can (or cannot) be reconciled with evolutionary theory". It gets very lively at times. It seemed obvious to me that McIntosh considers Asher to be 'on the way to becoming a Christian' as Asher seemed unsure about a literal resurrection of Christ. At the end Asher attacks a lack of accuracy and scientific truth in this book: http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/i ... ement.html Most (though not all) of the extensive listener feedback that Brierley reads out at the end - some atheists listen to Unbelievable apparently - suggested intense scepticism about McIntosh's position and arguments.

To get to the programme you have to click on the second item in the list near the bottom of this page: http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows/sa ... vable.aspx
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Re:

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:13 pm

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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:39 pm

It seemed obvious to me that McIntosh considers Asher to be 'on the way to becoming a Christian'


Rather than an actual Christian ?

Sounds as if Asher didn't handle that part particularly well. Oh dear.

Often YEcs will quote Paul and his reference to Christ as the "last Adam". If Adam wasn't a literal person then how can Christ be the last Adam ?
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Re: Re:

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:47 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:Very polarised reviews here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews ... ewpoints=1


The authors are all distinguished academics in disciplines that give them collectively the authority to critique current theories of evolution


Written by three well-established scientists, it advocates a more critical approach to Darwinism.


They may well be scientists but none are qualified in biology, geology, palaeontology etc. so what they say is meaningless. How a combustion engineer can talk at length about advanced concepts in biology is beyond me.
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Re: Re:

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:43 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:Very polarised reviews here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews ... ewpoints=1
Ah ah ah! And the star favourable review is by David Tyler who says the three scientists collectively have the authority to critique current theories of evolution. Well, he would say that, wouldn't he, being a creationist physicist who claims similar authority. Oh, I see I've commented on the review there already! :lol:
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Michael » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:19 am

Peter Henderson wrote:
It seemed obvious to me that McIntosh considers Asher to be 'on the way to becoming a Christian'


Rather than an actual Christian ?

Sounds as if Asher didn't handle that part particularly well. Oh dear.

Often YEcs will quote Paul and his reference to Christ as the "last Adam". If Adam wasn't a literal person then how can Christ be the last Adam ?


I get considerably less rudeness about my Christian faith from atheists. Over the years only a handful have been offensive but I cannot get into double figures of examples.

A good number including here ask me probing questions about my faith - and some pull my leg. That is fine.

Needless to say CMI have me down as a secularist and humanist.

The ploy of Creationists is so often to rubbish any Christian who accepts science.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:17 am

Michael wrote:
Peter Henderson wrote:
It seemed obvious to me that McIntosh considers Asher to be 'on the way to becoming a Christian'


Rather than an actual Christian ?

Sounds as if Asher didn't handle that part particularly well. Oh dear.

Often YEcs will quote Paul and his reference to Christ as the "last Adam". If Adam wasn't a literal person then how can Christ be the last Adam ?


I get considerably less rudeness about my Christian faith from atheists. Over the years only a handful have been offensive but I cannot get into double figures of examples.

A good number including here ask me probing questions about my faith - and some pull my leg. That is fine.

Needless to say CMI have me down as a secularist and humanist.

The ploy of Creationists is so often to rubbish any Christian who accepts science.



Indeed Michael, though my experiences on the Causeway anti creation Facebook group yesterday sounded just like Ken Ham. "the miracles in the bible aren't scientific so if you accept those then why do you reject the Genesis account of creation and a global flood".

Some Atheists appear to be hung up on Christians that accept science but also the miracles in the bible.

It is no different from the YECs

Some Atheists are completely clueless on how to deal with YECs.

I was told on more than one occasion yesterday that the whole of the bible and Christianity is simply a silly myth :evil:
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:06 am

Having actually listened to the debate, I do not think McIntosh's apparent doubt about whether Asher is yet a saved Christian stems from Asher's acceptance of evolution. It was more to do with belief in a literal resurrection. (Speaking as someone whose experience of Christianity was wholly within the evangelical wing of the church where being 'born again' was a central part of Christian belief.)
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Michael » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:58 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:Having actually listened to the debate, I do not think McIntosh's apparent doubt about whether Asher is yet a saved Christian stems from Asher's acceptance of evolution. It was more to do with belief in a literal resurrection. (Speaking as someone whose experience of Christianity was wholly within the evangelical wing of the church where being 'born again' was a central part of Christian belief.)


From my rather orthodox Christian standpoint McIntosh is very dodgy on the resurrection. He seems to accept a purely physical resurrection whereby Jesus rose in a reconstituted boy rather than any transformation as we find in the Gospels. He has some bizarre beleifs about the death of Christ too.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby colmo » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:56 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:Indeed Michael, though my experiences on the Causeway anti creation Facebook group yesterday sounded just like Ken Ham. "the miracles in the bible aren't scientific so if you accept those then why do you reject the Genesis account of creation and a global flood".

Some Atheists appear to be hung up on Christians that accept science but also the miracles in the bible.

It is no different from the YECs

Some Atheists are completely clueless on how to deal with YECs.

I was told on more than one occasion yesterday that the whole of the bible and Christianity is simply a silly myth :evil:



Despite what Peter may be saying of us, I'd invite anyone to read through the (overlong and frankly tiresome) thread where Peter throws mud then plays the victim, steadfastly refuses to answer questions and uses creationist arguments - who's more like the YECs, eh?: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Causewa ... 100090065/
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby cathy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:12 pm

From my rather orthodox Christian standpoint McIntosh is very dodgy on the resurrection. He seems to accept a purely physical resurrection whereby Jesus rose in a reconstituted boy rather than any transformation as we find in the Gospels. He has some bizarre beleifs about the death of Christ too.

To be honest I'm really, really @@@@@@@ fed up with the way creationists behave towards their non creationist Christian peers. And what they are saying does not make sense biblically. In fact I'd be inclined to say they are as arse over tits about religion as they are about science.

For starters they keep on claiming that there was no death before this mythical fall, and death is meant literally as is the rest of Genesis. Then in the same breath they do the standard Christian thing of Jesus dying to give everyone (or some people, I've really lost the plot on it now) eternal life? So is death literal or not? Where are the 2000 year old Christians or where is the grammatical clue (or even reference) that distinguishes their OT version of death from their NT one? Or am I missing something fundamental here? Not really my subject after all. Is there the Hebrew equivalent of an umlat over one that marks it out as different from the other? Or is the absence of the word death in Genesis perhaps a clue that it is different?

Secondly I managed to be a believer, by choice, for most of my adult life and by upbringing for my childhood. I don't recall ever coming across a single problem with evolution. I don't recall from my non choice days as a catholic or choice ones as CofE ever discussing or hearing mention of Genesis. Nor did I then or now as a non believer ever meet any sane Christian who had a problem.

And all the creationists seem to have major problems with other parts of the bible. Their lying for example - I'm pretty sure that is proscribed. Their lack of compassion and tolerance, not least to their sane peers etc.

They are all idiots in more ways than just science. Michael I'd take an insult from a creationist as a huge compliment if I were you. A sign that what you are doing is sp on!!! And excuse my asterisks in from of a man of the cloth as well - its just creationists - they bring out the very worse in me. Even more than dozy year 10s with attitudes.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 pm

colmo wrote:
Peter Henderson wrote:Indeed Michael, though my experiences on the Causeway anti creation Facebook group yesterday sounded just like Ken Ham. "the miracles in the bible aren't scientific so if you accept those then why do you reject the Genesis account of creation and a global flood".

Some Atheists appear to be hung up on Christians that accept science but also the miracles in the bible.

It is no different from the YECs

Some Atheists are completely clueless on how to deal with YECs.

I was told on more than one occasion yesterday that the whole of the bible and Christianity is simply a silly myth :evil:



Despite what Peter may be saying of us, I'd invite anyone to read through the (overlong and frankly tiresome) thread where Peter throws mud then plays the victim, steadfastly refuses to answer questions and uses creationist arguments - who's more like the YECs, eh?: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Causewa ... 100090065/


I merely mentioned how to deal with creationism in churches, something which Ron Elsdon has partly addressed. I then got a tirade of abuse. I think I've been more than patient with the group, who's primary aim was to oppose YECism at the Giant's Causeway, but which has become a mouthpiece for local Atheuists and nothing more.

If Ian Brown wants encouragement and a boost to his belief that evolution is incompatable with the bible and scripture (something which Richard Dawkins said to Howard Conder) then all he has to do is look at the downright abuse and nastiness I've taken over the last few days.

My points about Atheists celebrating Christmas and church weddings and funerals is perfectly valid.

I've never had a problem with evolution and science, which is why I joined this forum, but if it's now down to promoting Atheism in the name of science then count me out.

I presume you are Colin Morrison Colmo.

This group is now managed by the Rev. Michael Roberts, and welcomes people of all faiths and none, which is the way it should be.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:47 pm

To be honest I'm really, really @@@@@@@ fed up with the way creationists behave towards their non creationist Christian peers.


Some Atheists are just as bad Cathy.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:53 pm

who's more like the YECs, eh?:


I've argued with many YECs Colmo and the thing is, no matter what you say it will never be accepted e.g what is and isn't in the bible.

Some on the Causeway group are no different. No matter what I answer it wont be good enough, which is why I've refused to get drawn into silly and pointless questions such as:

If you were born in Saudi Arabia what religion do you thing you waould be


etc. etc. etc.

I dunno.

Most people I know that don't go to church simply don't care about religion and don't go on and on repeating Richard Dawkins type dogma.
Last edited by Peter Henderson on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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