Give it up, McIntosh

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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby PJFloyd » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:24 pm

The question in full is simply, "What religion would you be if you were born in Saudi Arabia?"

If you are a Christian I can 99.99% guarantee you won't directly answer. If you're not a Christian, ask one of 'them' sometime, they will dodge it.

I've asked Michael Roberts this question many times and he avoids it like the plague. It even drove him into such a huff once that he left the Facebook group for a week or so. He called me 'persistent' actually in the recent Facebook argument to which I replied that I wouldn't need to be persistent if he answered me!
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:30 pm

PJFloyd wrote:My use of the words 'their' and 'us' are simply how the English language works. It should be pretty clear from the context of the conversation who I was referring to. The group is of course open to anyone, YECs, Christian evolutionists and atheists. Where such groups gather there is bound to be heated debate and that is a good thing. Inevitably the conversation will turn to religion vs atheism and most people enjoy a good debate. But, and I really am trying to be as objective as possible here, Peter Henderson came off the worse in the recent debate. He blatantly avoided questions which is very frustrating and indicates a weak position.

Peter, I would most definitely like to see you come back to the group and you are more than welcome BUT if the conversation turns to a topic you don't like that's just something you would have to deal with. It has also been posited that you may be experiencing a crisis of faith, if that is so I know how difficult it is. Actually I'll tell you straight, my Saudi Arabia line of questioning is designed to cause maximum cognitive dissonance which is the reason you are unable to give a straight answer to it.


PJ: OK then, maybe I most probably likely would be a Muslim, but who knows. I could be a Christian.

Still, this just reminds me of my long and tedious conversations with ploughboy on Premier. "Why wont you engage with us and answer our questions" Sound familiar ?

But the questions were answered over and over again.

The bible doesn't mention the age of the Earth. The length of the days of creation are unknown. Nothing in scripture about no animal death prior to the fall. Taking the bible as written, Cain did not marry his sister. No where does it state the flood was a significant geological event resulting in the fossil record we see today. The extent of the flood is purely arbitrary. No mention of dinosaurs anywhere on Noah's ark or anywhere else in scripture. Death can be interpreted as spiritual and not literal.

This was never enough to satisfy either Paul Garner or ploughboy.

See where I'm going with this ?

"If you accept the miracles in scripture then how can this be a scientific position". Sounds Awfully familiar again (I think the YECs throw this at us as well). I don't think any answer would satisfy Gary Sparks, and I hope you understand my points about leeway and scientific illiteracy in churches. Like the general public, most Christians haven't a clue about science.

and I would like to think that in the fight against YECism in NI, there isn't an us or they situation, and that we are all in this together irrespective of our faith position.

Anyway, welcome to the BCSE forum P.J.
Last edited by Peter Henderson on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:39 pm

and I think a vast majority of evangelical Christians would profoundly disagree that their faith is simply an accident of birth.

I dunno.

Will Crawly has an excellent TV series on BBC 1 NI about the Irish Presbyterians entitled "an independent people", which gives a pretty good insight into the way NI Christians think.

Or maybe C.S. Lewis' "mere Christianity" deals with this question. Maybe we should all read more C.S. Lewis.

I do get the impression that most on the Causeway anti creation group simply don't understand evangelical Christianity.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:44 pm

All evangelical Christians would state that they're not born as "born again" Christians. The fact that 99.9% of people in Saudi Arabia are born Muslim and remain so until their death would be seen as the reason why missionary work and the preaching of the gospel throughout the world is so important.

Evangelicals would also say that even if someone is simply a nominal Christian or no more than a Church goer, their fate in eternity is no different to that of a Muslim in Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:
PJFloyd wrote: Actually I'll tell you straight, my Saudi Arabia line of questioning is designed to cause maximum cognitive dissonance
Saudi Arabia? The mind boggles - Finn MacCool must have been one hell of a thrower! (A visitor there told me they had to take a ridiculously short flight because they weren't allowed to drive over a certain causeway. Maybe the stones are getting a bit wobbly now?)



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby jon_12091 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:55 pm

PJFloyd wrote:The question in full is simply, "What religion would you be if you were born in Saudi Arabia?"

Wow!
And I thought "were YOU there?" was the last word in intellectual banality.

PJFloyd wrote:He blatantly avoided questions which is very frustrating and indicates a weak position.

*raises eyebrow*
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:34 pm

It has also been posited that you may be experiencing a crisis of faith


LOL :lol:

If P.Z. Myers can't convince me of Atheism, then the causeway group have no hope !
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Michael » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:44 am

I suppose I should be a hindu.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby PJFloyd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:28 am

Michael wrote:I suppose I should be a hindu.


Sarcasm and conspicuous lack of cerebral content. This is Roberts I assume.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:03 am

MODERATOR NOTE:
This is hardly on-topic, bringing an unrelated dispute here from another site. Especially one that is bound to go nowhere.
Am I going to have to set up another forum "Conversations with Atheists"?
Finn MacCool it please.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:15 am

The situation has all the depressing the potentiouness of someone posting "I believe in evolution, but...."
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby cathy » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:34 pm

All evangelical Christians would state that they're not born as "born again" Christians. The fact that 99.9% of people in Saudi Arabia are born Muslim and remain so until their death would be seen as the reason why missionary work and the preaching of the gospel throughout the world is so important.


I was born a catholic, or should I say I was born and others decided to raise me as catholic. I was brought up to believe the rest, which amounted solely to protestants, were wrong. I chose to become sort of adopted by the CofE after deciding the RCC was morally bankrupt and anti women. The core of it was being nice to people and the comfort faith gives. It was also an emotional rather than other sort of thing.

I know muslims of varying degrees of strictness born in the UK and brought up amongst Christians in RC and CofE schools, and there are Christians in Saudi Arabia and other largely Muslim Arab states. The coptic christians for example are having a tough time in Egypt.

I became an atheist only after coming across creationist Christians by accident. Logically they were idiots but they were easy to argue down. I'd sucessfully argued my position against clever and not so clever atheist friends after all. However as it was in part an emotional thing creationism killed it stone dead and now I believe in nothing but humanity. However that does not make me suddenly cleverer or more or less rational.

So I think, like Brian Cox, that it is a pointless argument to engage in. There are so many things wrong in the world, some attributed to religion, that are worth fighting. As long as someone is on side on those and on doing right who cares about their personal beliefs. Islam for example is seen as a backward anti women religion and probably is on paper BUT Malala is a muslim and has far more about her than many of the atheist teenagers I know. The muslim girls in our sixth form are the hardest working and most focused as well. That is a conundrum. And culture plays a far bigger part than people allow.

It is a non argument. Fight nonsense not personal beliefs.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:05 pm

I became an atheist only after coming across creationist Christians by accident. Logically they were idiots but they were easy to argue down. I'd sucessfully argued my position against clever and not so clever atheist friends after all. However as it was in part an emotional thing creationism killed it stone dead and now I believe in nothing but humanity. However that does not make me suddenly cleverer or more or less rational.


Exactly Cathy.

Christians using young Earth creationism as a form of evangelism makes Atheism true by default.

That the Earth is 4.55 billion years old, there was no global flood 4,500 years ago, and that evolution has occurred are demonstrable facts in science, in the same way the periodic table is true. There's no way around it other than to lie about the facts.
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:16 pm

Wonder if Seamus Heaney will have a church funeral ?
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Re: Give it up, McIntosh

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:46 am

Peter Henderson wrote:When McIntosh started going on about perfectly preserved butterfly and dragon fly fossils, supposedly during a violent food, Asher attempted to make the point "what do you think a a 40 ft tsunami would do to a dead butterfly".

McIntosh just went on and on and on. Such a fossil would have to be formed under low energy conditions.


McIntosh also needs to explain cyclothems - I'd love to see a model of the flood that explains them....

http://www.kabrna.com/cpgs/stratigraphy ... al_map.htm
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