An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended.

Moderator: Moderators

An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:48 pm

They accuse their many critics of the very things they do themselves!

http://creation.com/evolutionist-geolog ... e-evidence
Article title: "It's time for evolutionist geologists to face the evidence".
NO. It is time for young Earth creationists to face the evidence. Including that found at Siccar Point.
"What the secular geologists have done is to ‘find’ what they have assumed." Which show they have an understanding of Earth's distant past. Unlike young Earth creationist zealots.

Walker is trying to have a go at this article by geologist David Montgomery.
http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/arch ... 2-11-4.htm (Walker did not supply a live link to this)

I will fully read the Walker propaganda piece only after reading the Montgomery article in GSA Today.

In his Introduction Montgomery writes:
"But the forerunners of modern creationists chose to defend their preferred literal reading of scripture no matter what the rocks revealed. Dismissing the findings of geologists, they rejected reason in the name of faith. In this sense, modern creationism evolved in response to geological discoveries."
YECs will NOT admit that accurate descriptions by critics of how they approach 'historical' science ARE accurate.

Montgomery also states that Henry Morris and John Whitcomb in The Genesis Flood "read the Bible to determine geologic history and then looked for scientific support for their views—and dismissed or ignored contradictory evidence". An accurate description of the birth of modern creationism indeed.

So far, so good. Now for the Walker article.

"Montgomery says the biblical account of Noah’s Flood was challenged by geological discoveries like James Hutton’s unconformity at Siccar Point. But it was not a discovery that Hutton made, but an interpretation." I have never been to Siccar Point but have seen photos taken there. I BELIEVE THAT WALKER IS PLAYING WITH WORDS WITH A DELIBERATE INTENTION TO MISLEAD. As Montgomery mentions in his article (see his Figure 2): "James Hutton’s unconformity at Siccar Point, Scotland—the contact between the gently inclined Devonian Old Red Sandstone and vertically dipping Silurian graywacke that established a compelling case for the vast scope of geologic time". Fellow YECs in their 'Set in Stone' misinformation DVD pretended that there was only a 'smooth' or 'flat' unconformity at Siccar Point. Yet when faced with the reality of a rough and uneven one with greywacke bands poking up into overlying red sandstone, suggestive of slow differential erosion over 'eons', this YEC cannot really hide that evidence - can he? So he instead blusters about 'interpretations'. And questions whether Montgomery has read articles on YEC websites like, presumably, the CMI website.

And he triumphantly declares Siccar Point to be an 'icon of Noah's Flood' - after lying that "the contact between the two sandstone deposits has been eroded flat". I stand corrected! Walker DOES attempt to hide the evidence of an uneven unconformity. Perhaps that is WHY the unconformity is NOT labelled in the photo his article attaches?

When 'Truth in Science' were presented with the refutation of the same falsehood in 'Set in Stone' they ran away from the discussion - see within some of the later comments made under this review:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R2QEUG29 ... UG29GX1NR4

Are we to believe that whether a recently photographed unconformity (which of course already existed when James Hutton and John Playfair visited Siccar Point) is flat or is uneven is simply an 'interpretation'?

Continues Walker: Charles Lyell (in Principles of Geology) "made a conscious decision to ignore the biblical account of Noah’s Flood and what that meant for the earth". He claims that the geological case for a global flood was not discredited (before Darwin boarded the Beagle) but simply 'ignored'. Yet Walker IGNORES these comments by Montgomery (whose article readers of the CMI site would have to search for online as I did): "Particularly compelling was Charles Lyell’s argument that the cinder cones of southern France were too fragile to have survived a global flood. Deep valleys were incised into hard lava flows that could be traced back to their volcanic source in the cinder cones. Thus, the valleys must have been carved after the cinder cones formed. Lyell reasoned that Noah’s Flood could not have carved the valleys because any flood capable of carving valleys into solid rock would have swept away the loose cinders that formed the volcanic cones. In the third volume of his Principles of Geology (1833), Lyell concluded that Noah’s Flood must have been a local or regional affair rather than a global deluge. Perhaps, he proposed, catastrophic flooding of a low-lying area like the Caspian Sea may have been recorded in the biblical flood story".

Walker disinters some old favourites beloved of YECs such as "Marine fossils are found on the tops of mountains. The fossils are often well preserved indicating rapid burial before they had a chance to disintegrate and decay".

The rest of his piece cites previous (most probably dodgy) articles on the CMI website. And the propagandist tone continues: "But the connection with Noah’s Flood can only be appreciated by those who are willing to see. Those who continue to hold onto their blind spots won’t be able to make the connection. This bias is a major problem. Evolutionary geologists think they are dealing with facts and can’t see that they are only dealing with interpretations. It gives a false sense of superiority and a strong incentive to shut down debate".

Interestingly, one of those commenting on this article at the CMI Facebook page (initials PR) says he was a YEC until two years ago - but then embraced an old Earth view. Why? Largely because of EVIDENCE from the natural world. Specifically "my study of stromatolites and the Flood Geology evidence lead me to accept an old earth view".
https://www.facebook.com/creationministries

Note that PR (a former 'major proponent' of YEC-ism) ALSO states: "While Flood Geology has made progress, there are some geological events in which it cannot account for. For example we have five specimens of octopi recently discovered in Cretaceous rock in Lebanon. In order to preserve such soft bodied creatures, the great flood of Noah would have obliterated the bodies. Rapid burial is not always the manner which fossilization occurs. The requirement is really a low biological activity process. This can occur in tarpits and some peat bogs, but also in low oxygen level pools, lakes and other bodies of water. In order to get the beautiful octopus fossils from Lebanon, we see that rather than a sudden tumultuous flood, a slow fine silting, most likely from a nearby volcanic eruption, slowly deposited fine silt in a relatively still body of water, where low oxygen levels halted the decay of the octopus bodies, is required. This kind of soft body fossilization would have been impossible in the Noahic flood. We also have stromatolite fossils, stromatolites are a living pillar of bacteria, specifically cyanobacteria (formerly called blue-green algae). Cyanobacteria carry out photosynthesis by splitting water and releasing oxygen. During times of high activity, these microbial mats produced abundant oxygen, which reacted with iron to form iron oxide that was deposited in sediments. When photosynthetic activity was low, little oxygen was produced, and we find no iron oxide formed which resulted in light colored bands of minerals deposited. This means that life, in the form of these stromatolites, existed prior to an oxygen rich atmosphere."

Under the website article Walker is asked a perceptive question by Damien S. And FAILS to answer it properly, merely saying that people today and people in Bible times doubted a global flood. Quelle surprise. And there is some desperate nonsense by a Gavin B: "The evidence suggests a global flood, on face value. Evolutionary geologists refuse to believe in the flood not because of any evidence, but because they don't want to believe the Bible. If the flood wasn't in the Bible (hypothetically speaking), they would probably look at the evidence and say that it pointed to a global flood". Only if they were deluded or dishonest. For reasons alluded to in Montgomery's fairly brief account.

I am sending the link to this thread to Tas Walker and David Montgomery.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:27 pm

Saw this today Ashley which was posted by a YEC on the "creation vs evolution" Facebook page, in reality a page run by two YECs (who I suspect are scientifically illiterate)_

I've made two points.

(1) Walker isn't a geologist but an electrical engineer with a degree in geology.

(2) Walker should put his claims to a recognised professional science body such as the Geological Society. Why wont he do this ?

This is what Gene Shoemaker had to do when he demonstrated lunar craters were as a result of impacts and not volcanic in origin. By the end of the 1960's his ideas were the accepted science view and not the latter. Why wont Walker do this ?

My comments have of course fallen on deaf ears.
Peter Henderson
 
Posts: 4350
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:07 pm
Location: Jordanstown, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:29 pm

"
Perhaps evolutionary geologists do not read creationist literature"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txzOIGulUIQ
Peter Henderson
 
Posts: 4350
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:07 pm
Location: Jordanstown, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:40 pm

My email has been sent via gmail because O2 email keeps telling me "Failed to send email". (How helpful is that?!)
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:52 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:Saw this today Ashley which was posted by a YEC on the "creation vs evolution" Facebook page, in reality a page run by two YECs (who I suspect are scientifically illiterate)_

I've made two points.

(1) Walker isn't a geologist but an electrical engineer with a degree in geology.

(2) Walker should put his claims to a recognised professional science body such as the Geological Society. Why wont he do this ?

This is what Gene Shoemaker had to do when he demonstrated lunar craters were as a result of impacts and not volcanic in origin. By the end of the 1960's his ideas were the accepted science view and not the latter. Why wont Walker do this ?

My comments have of course fallen on deaf ears.



Which Facebook page are you referring to, Peter? If it is this one, I cannot see ANY comments during November 2013.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Creation ... 4824489374
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:27 am

No Ashley, it's this one:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/creationevolution4God/

These two are pretty nasty YECs wgo continually refer to scientists as "evolutionists"
Peter Henderson
 
Posts: 4350
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:07 pm
Location: Jordanstown, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:52 am

I have received an email reply from Mr Walker. For some unfathomable reason it was not copied to Mr Montgomery. Since Mr Walker appreciates the publicity I give to CMI material, I will post his reply here:

"Dear ashley haworth-roberts,
Thank you for your comment (see below) about the article on creation.com titled It’s time for evolutionist geologists to face the evidence.

We appreciate how you promote our material. You are an enthusiastic broadcaster of our articles and we like the way you bring them to people's attention.
We prayed for you this morning at our offices at CMI. Your name was not mentioned publically. We pray every Wednesday for our opponents, and in my mind I mentioned you to the Lord personally, wondering how you are managing with everything.

Are you able to get out from your home regularly to meet people? How do you go with your supplies of food and your washing? Is your health good at the moment? How is your family?

I have a story for you. I'm sure you would already know it, but as I prayed about this email to you this story came to my mind. Its from Mark 2:1-12:

Jesus went back to Capernaum, and a few days later people heard that he was at home.
Then so many of them came to the house that there wasn't even standing room left in front of the door. Jesus was still teaching when four people came up, carrying a crippled man on a mat.
But because of the crowd, they could not get him to Jesus. So they made a hole in the roof above him and let the man down in front of everyone.
When Jesus saw how much faith they had, he said to the crippled man, "My friend, your sins are forgiven."
Some of the teachers of the Law of Moses were sitting there. They started wondering,
"Why would he say such a thing? He must think he is God! Only God can forgive sins."
Right away, Jesus knew what they were thinking, and he said, "Why are you thinking such things?
Is it easier for me to tell this crippled man that his sins are forgiven or to tell him to get up and pick up his mat and go on home?
I will show you that the Son of Man has the right to forgive sins here on earth." So Jesus said to the man,
"Get up! Pick up your mat and go on home."
The man got right up. He picked up his mat and went out while everyone watched in amazement. They praised God and said, "We have never seen anything like this!"

Ashley, what do you think of that? What does this story tell us about what Jesus is like?

All the best,
Tas"

I do not propose to reply to this email.

Should Montgomery comment, I might reply (copied to Walker).
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:59 am

Just missed: http://www.thegodreality.com/ 'Taking Back the Culture'.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:18 am

David Montgomery replied, but only to my gmail address (and not copied to Walker as far as I can make out):
"Hi Ashley,
Thanks for sharing that with me.
Cheers,
Dave".
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:02 am

So WHAT is that (remarkable) evidence that 'evolutionist geologists' like Montgomery who reject YEC Flood Geology are refusing to 'face', according to Walker?

Well it's all to do with:
- there is a fossil record (who would have thought it);
- some of the fossils are marine/found on high mountains/well preserved/soft bodied creatures/found with other species;
- sedimentary deposits on the continents;
- "Huge volcanic eruptions called Large Igneous Provinces, enormous compared with the sorts of volcanic eruptions today, erupted while sedimentation was occurring". According to Mr Walker;
- flat-topped plateaus capped with gravel deposits;
- big canyons through mountains.

Case closed. There cannot be ANY other explanation for these.

If you are a dogmatic science-rejecting YEC.

But the connection with Noah’s Flood can only be appreciated by those who are willing to see, mind. Those prepared to embrace YEC-ism as a position - and then always interpret any physical evidence as being 'remarkable' confirmation that the book of Genesis is 'true science' provided by the Christian God (even though, with odd exceptions eg in certain Psalms that same God seems to steer well CLEAR of scientific topics through the rest of the Bible from Genesis 12 onwards).
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An example of young Earth creationist hypocrisy

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:09 am

I've submitted a comment to CMI under the recent Walker article, as follows:

"Phoebe is correct and Tas Walker is talking dishonest nonsense in response.
In his article Montgomery wrote: "Particularly compelling was Charles Lyell’s argument that the cinder cones of southern France were too fragile to have survived a global flood. Deep valleys were incised into hard lava flows that could be traced back to their volcanic source in the cinder cones. Thus, the valleys must have been carved after the cinder cones formed. Lyell reasoned that Noah’s Flood could not have carved the valleys because any flood capable of carving valleys into solid rock would have swept away the loose cinders that formed the volcanic cones. In the third volume of his Principles of Geology (1833), Lyell concluded that Noah’s Flood must have been a local or regional affair rather than a global deluge. Perhaps, he proposed, catastrophic flooding of a low-lying area like the Caspian Sea may have been recorded in the biblical flood story". Is Montgomery just a 'lying atheist'? Or he correct - and Mr Walker deliberately incorrect - that Lyell did not choose to 'ignore' a worldwide [flood] but instead concluded from the available physical evidence that it simply could not have happened?

You will of course censor this because it is factually correct and because it exposes the divorce between young Earth creationists and simple facts."

EDIT: one wonders whether Phoebe attempted a further comment.
a_haworthroberts
 
Posts: 8838
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:49 am
Location: United Kingdom


Return to Free For All

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron