Alice Roberts weighs in.

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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:44 am

and incompetent


No more incompetent than the other largest party, Sinn Féin

Everything here is done for party political and sectarian (on both sides) reasons.

I thought by this stage Roger you would have realised there are two sides to sectarianism in Northern Ireland. Why can you only see the one ????

That in itself is sectarian.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:49 am

Peter Henderson wrote:
and incompetent


No more incompetent than the other largest party, Sinn Féin

Everything here is done for party political and sectarian (on both sides) reasons.

I thought by this stage Roger you would have realised there are two sides to sectarianism in Northern Ireland. Why can you only see the one ????

That in itself is sectarian.


I'm well aware of sectarianism taking centrestage in NI politics and that the Shinners are every bid as bad, or worse, than unionists. However, my comments were directed at one person in particular, Ian Paisley. I do recall that Paisely ran a campaign to keep homosexuality illegal in the province, using the banner headline "Save Ulster from Sodomy".
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby cathy » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:01 pm

I thought by this stage Roger you would have realised there are two sides to sectarianism in Northern Ireland. Why can you only see the one ????


Most definitely two sides, tho for years here in the UK we only really got one! So even tho I was a kid when the bombs were going off here, I got the flak and fall out. Though there was never ANY justification for any killing by either side, there was also NO explanation as to why and little blame or news of the attrocities committed by the other side. It was always IRA attrocities that were publicised unless you were Irish and heard about them from elsewhere!

Now I really wonder if many of those bombs would have been planted (by both sides) and how many people would have been shot if Paisley hadn't opened his bigoted, hateful, fundamentalist gob and kept Catholics in their place. That is why we are trying to develop laws against religious hate rhetoric isn't it. To prevent the Paisleys of the world leading to the Abu Hamzas of the world. Stop folk from generating death misery and hatred on a large scale. He was evil and has as much blood on his hands as the terrorists.

Nobody has the right to attack another person over transubstantiation or who the natural successor to Mohammed is. Stupidity.

Hate speech works best in recessions I think. With the poor and disadvantaged and with the greater reach of the internet. NI will restart and Islam will become more extreme. Stop the bigots before they lead to killing is probably the best way.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:24 pm

cathy wrote:Stop the bigots before they lead to killing is probably the best way.


Alas, nobody could stop Paisley. Private Eye was reporting on him being an extreme demogogue as far back as 1963, well before the troubles started. He was preaching anti-catholocism even then. Alas many of the leading American public fundamentalists today are far more extreme than Paisley. It's also easy to forget that the US fundamentalists have an enormous conventional broadcasting industry of their own to call on to push their crapola so the problem isn't really just the rise of Internet.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:11 pm

We're getting a bit off topic but never mind - at least until I've had my say :-)
All this reflects a problem with politics, politicised religion and perhaps some failing of the human group-mind. Why on earth does a person's opinion on one matter have to dictate their allegiances for a whole spectrum of things? Why should a belief in transubstantiation be equated with a wish for the country to be ruled by the Vatican? Why should a rejection of the universal authority of popes be equated with the acceptance of everything the London government decrees? The fallacy shows up particularly in NI, where the UK parties barely get a look-in and it's beginning to appear in Scotland, where it's bog-off England or the opposite regardless of all else. More generally, people are expected to vote for one or another political party, warts and all, and decry the rest. We're not allowed referenda, for fear of Joe Public voting for something diabolical. Our "betters" worry that people might vote for hanging or flogging and on that basis we are all assumed to be selfish babes-in-arms that are nonetheless somehow competent to elect some self-styled superior who will then do what he is (or rather his party bosses are) sure is right, in return for having those points on which we agree with him pressed and all our other opinions ignored or even rejected.
(sorry for the rant, been a bad day.)
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:38 pm

He was preaching anti-catholocism even then.


If you look at what has been exposed recently as having happened in the Republic of Ireland it's no wonder.

What I cannot figure out is why my community is constantly demonised while that lying b*****d Adams is made out to be some sort of saint ?????????????

Even the Taoiseach Enda Kenny and the Tánaiste can't stand him or Sinn Féin yet, we're meant to share power with them ???????

The one reason why the DUP is the largest party is for one reason and one reason only. The prisoner releases during the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. That was a bitter pill for Unionists to swallow and for many, far to high a price for peace. That's the reason for the Haass talks and why we have to "deal with the past". Had the prisoners not been let out then there would have been no problem with the past.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:49 pm

where the UK parties barely get a look-in


Yep, it's a real pity we don't have normal politics here Brian but that's because the British Labour party and the Lib Dems don't, and never have organised here.

As a left of centre Unionist I really don't have anyone to vote for. I'll be damned if I'll vote for the SDLP, which in some ways is no better than the DUP on religious matters such as abortion and homosexuality, and just as sectarian.

Still, I apologise for being way off topic.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:55 pm

Incidentally, the Martyrs' Memorial church in Belfast, which Paisley founded, now has a new pastor, the Rev. Ian Brown:

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/church ... -1-5242367

Brown is a pretty hardened YEC:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2043928 ... 5/?fref=ts
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:35 am

Peter Henderson wrote:
He was preaching anti-catholocism even then.


If you look at what has been exposed recently as having happened in the Republic of Ireland it's no wonder.

Yes but the Irish have ditched the RCC in vaste numbers.

However, if you go back to before the start of the troubles, English people had no hangup about asking someone what theor religion was - and that usually meant whether they were Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Methodist or whatever. When the troubles started it became a very impolite thing to do. Most people in England regarded the NI issues over religion to be a throughback to the distant past (backwardness if you like). Don't forget that the RCC in England was and is the second largest denomination here. The Labour Party really got the issues of anti-Catholicism sorted out in its very earliest days.

Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams are widely disliked or loathed on the mainland of the UK. But then so is Ian Paisley. Neither Sinn Fein or the DUP could ever become viable political parties on the mainland of the UK. The mainstream British parties are loathed to get involved in Northern Ireland. Barabara Castle's comments show why.

Don't forget that the ancient enmities if not bitterness between the English and the Irish have long gone.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby cathy » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:59 pm

What I cannot figure out is why my community is constantly demonised while that lying b*****d Adams is made out to be some sort of saint ?????????????


Whoaa. Thats a huge leap of illogic! I've yet to see Adams made out as some sort of saint and I've yet to see your community demonised unless you think Paisley represents your community. Which I do not.

If we get down to the nitty gritty Adams is a murdering lying bastard - and he's Paisleys creation. Just like all the other murdering, lying bastards from BOTH sides of that community. Paisley and his ilk had a huge hand in creating that particular hell hole!!! The seeds for all that murder were sown a long time ago. There were murderers on both sides and by the end it looked more like gangland mafias than political activism.

If you look at what has been exposed recently as having happened in the Republic of Ireland it's no wonder.

Yes but there is a huge difference between according people equal status/respect when it comes to jobs, housing, voting in your own community and going for a united ROI isn't it. Just as there is a huge difference between saying NO to Sharia law at any cost in the UK and racism against thousands of ordinary Muslims happily going about their business in private. I would be the first to say no to Sharia but also the first to say the EDL are a bunch of racist morons with no rights at all to say the things they say. Being anti one thing does not have to make you a bigot and anti everything. Paisley could have spoken against a united Ireland and still accorded NIs catholics equal rights.

Before Bloody Sunday IRA stood for I ran away. Bloody Sunday, no matter how it was hijacked and what it became, was primarily a civil rights march. Supported by many in the UK I'm told. It was not a march for a united Ireland, Paisley was never at risk until he pushed people too far. PUsh people too far and they bite back brutally.

And why exactly did the RCC get such a toxic hold on the ROI? Would all that dishonest shit and abuse cloaked in moral rhetoric have survived if the ROI hadn't just freed itself from British rule. Would it have come about if British rule had been in any way benign? I know my Grandmother was beaten up by the black and tans whilst pregnant and I know that a few years ago when the gardai were interviewing folk after a murder in her town that she was so terrified she refused to speak to them due to memories of that.

Come to that would we have hardline Islam and dangerously loony Ayatollahs in Iran if the British and Americans hadn't replaced their democratically elected president with their hated, bastard Shah. Would religion have taken such a toxic hold if that hadn't happened. What about Bin Laden and Afghanistan? Would he have wielded the power he did if the US hadn't funded him against the Russians?

The one reason why the DUP is the largest party is for one reason and one reason only. The prisoner releases during the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. That was a bitter pill for Unionists to swallow and for many, far to high a price for peace. That's the reason for the Haass talks and why we have to "deal with the past". Had the prisoners not been let out then there would have been no problem with the past.

There were bitter pills to swallow on BOTH sides. The reason Nelson Mandela was such a brilliant leader and led SA sucessfully out of apartheid was in no small part due to swallowing bitter pills and trying to move on. That must have been far harder because the injustices weren't on both sides wheras in NI they clearly were. In NI they were.

It all comes down to do you want peace, or not, from a war were there were a lot of innocents on both sides but equal guilt on both sides. Where one persons terrorists were anothers freedom fighters. Either both sides swallow bitter pills or the killing returns.

As a left of centre Unionist I really don't have anyone to vote for. I'll be damned if I'll vote for the SDLP, which in some ways is no better than the DUP on religious matters such as abortion and homosexuality, and just as sectarian.

The reason that religion has NO place in politics and only secular democracies work. Human rights above all else and religious belief a private and personal matter. Ireland didn't work cos it let the RCC have incredible amounts of power which its only just lost.

Yes but the Irish have ditched the RCC in vaste numbers.


That is very recent tho. They still have too much power as the recent case of the Indian dentist that died in a maternity hospital shows.

The ones that left have had a weird but healthier relationship with catholicism as far as I can see. My mum would call herself a catholic and has all the trappings (holy water, pictures of the sacred heart and so on) but I've yet to hear her say anything remotely positive about priests (hypocrites and bullies only interested in the rich), nuns (nasty bullies who hit small children), bishops (terrifying people with the devil for having sex yet abusing left right and center) or anything else. She stopped going to communion after I was born cos she'd decided to tell the priests to stuff their rules about contraception- yet sent us to RC schools where we learnt the same crap. I have never understood by what criteria she actually was a catholic.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:31 pm

There were bitter pills to swallow on BOTH sides


Not too much on the Republican side Cathy, apart from giving up the violence.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 03281.html

In no other democracy would murderers get immunity from prosecution before a certain date and serve a full term for murder after.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 89625.html
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:02 am

MODERATOR NOTE
I know I couldn't resist throwing in my two pennorth but I really must put my moderator's hat back on. I'm sorry I didn't really discourage it earlier, but this is waaaay off topic and going nowhere. Neanderthals yes but neanderthal politics, no. Please get back on topic, folks - I don't want to have to lock the thread.
Just as a reminder,
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Stop it, Google Images - wrong professor! Get back on topic I say!
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Peter Henderson » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:13 am

Apologies Brian.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby cathy » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:57 pm

Still, you've got UKIP to deal with at the next election.

Peter I think this sums up UKIP beautifully. Sorry Brian it is still way off topic but UKIP are a worry. No Irish politics at all though one mention of transubstantiation. Ignore the strange 30 second interview segment part way in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ

Feel free to remove.
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Re: Alice Roberts weighs in.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:55 pm

cathy wrote:
Still, you've got UKIP to deal with at the next election.

Peter I think this sums up UKIP beautifully. Sorry Brian it is still way off topic but UKIP are a worry. No Irish politics at all though one mention of transubstantiation. Ignore the strange 30 second interview segment part way in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ

Feel free to remove.


The first time I started to look into what UKIP was about - well over a decade ago - its members were typically ageing ex-Tories who hated the Irish. They were full of bile but were of a generation that is now rapidly ceasing to exist.

Ironically, some 10% of the population of the Republic of Ireland today are British citizens.
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