After Kizmiller-What ?

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After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:50 am

From Glenn Branch of the NCSE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUbtPoLKACM

Looks an interesting lecture. I'll have a look tomorrow in more detail.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:40 am

Peter Henderson wrote:From Glenn Branch of the NCSE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUbtPoLKACM

Looks an interesting lecture. I'll have a look tomorrow in more detail.


Thanks for that link, Peter. It's an interesting update.

Glenn also made a comment that helps solve a puzzle. He suggested that the prevelance of fundamentalism (and therefore creationism) in Queensland was a result of US troops being posted there in large numbers in WWII.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:23 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:From Glenn Branch of the NCSE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUbtPoLKACM

Looks an interesting lecture. I'll have a look tomorrow in more detail.


More on why so much of thr creationist movement originated in Queensland. This article http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:189291 seems to confirm the influence of US fundamentalists but also suggests that they failed, hence Ham's move to the USA. It appears that the turning point was 1989 when the corrupt "ancien regime" in Queensland politics was kicked out of power for ever and the fundamentalists lost their political support, Teaching of creationism in state schools was stopped.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:17 pm

He suggested that the prevelance of fundamentalism (and therefore creationism) in Queensland was a result of US troops being posted there in large numbers in WWII.


At least we weren't to blame on that one Roger :wink:

I think much of the YEC movement in the UK possibly ultimately originated from Australia when Answers in Genesis set up in the UK in the mid 1990's, shortly after Ham left the ICR to set up AiG US.

Currently, CMI has usurped AiG (UK) after the split from AiG. Again, CMI originates from Australia rather than the US.

I'd surmise Creation Outreach Ministries is probably the local offshoot of CMI rather than AiG.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:43 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:
He suggested that the prevelance of fundamentalism (and therefore creationism) in Queensland was a result of US troops being posted there in large numbers in WWII.


At least we weren't to blame on that one Roger :wink:

I think much of the YEC movement in the UK possibly ultimately originated from Australia when Answers in Genesis set up in the UK in the mid 1990's, shortly after Ham left the ICR to set up AiG US.

Currently, CMI has usurped AiG (UK) after the split from AiG. Again, CMI originates from Australia rather than the US.

I'd surmise Creation Outreach Ministries is probably the local offshoot of CMI rather than AiG.


IIRC YECism in the UK predates the 1990s - by a considerable margin if you take CSM into account (it started as the Evolution Protest Movement in the 1930s). As far as I can recall from the research I did a few years ago, YECism began to take off around 1970 when the UK edition of Morris and Whitecombe's "flood geology" nonsense was first published in the UK. That resulted in the Evolution Protest Movement being taken over by Rosevear and his pals and, some years later (1080s?), the Biblical Creation Society being formed as a splinter group. AiG's origins in Australia also date back to the 1980s but it didn't establish a UK arm until the 1990s. Still, for us the big problem appears to have originated in the 1990s when the fundamentalists started their "creation activist" movement to get creationism into schools. Out of that, of course, came "Truth in Science".

As for AiG, there is no money to be had from the UK. It did a bunk. By the time Truth in Science opended its door, the game was over for the creationists. They had already lost "Dover" and the public in the UK had been shown their underlying and systematic dishonesty.

Even in the USA the fundamentalists have moved on. They moved on in 2008 to hate Obama (because of his "skin condition"), have seriously damaged the Republican Party and have a huge anti-gay campaign on (which, of course, they are losing).
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:05 pm

They moved on in 2008 to hate Obama (because of his "skin condition"), have seriously damaged the Republican Party and have a huge anti-gay campaign on (which, of course, they are losing).


Not forgetting the pro life movement and the anti vaxxers.

Evangelical Protestantism was always somewhat more liberal on abortion (as they were on contraception) than the Catholic church. I remember going to hear the late Norman Nevin preach on the subject back in the early 1990's and I distinctly remember him saying that in some cases "abortion was the lesser of two evils". That isn't the position in evangelical circles now, and groups such as the Christian Medical Fellowship are now at one with the likes of Bernadette Smyth's Precious Life, which states abortion should not happen under any circumstances.

High profile cases in the ROI and here have caused something of a protest, but Enda Kenny doesn't want to touch a potential hot potato, and there's a strange and unholy alliance between the DUP and certain sections of the SDLP (and even Alliance) in the assembly on this, so I can't see anything changing anytime soon:

https://www.facebook.com/ukcmf/posts/750056015008132

http://www.cmf.org.uk/

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/3 ... ro-choice/

http://www.preciouslife.com/

I've come across quite a few anti vaxxers from the province on Facebook as well.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby cathy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:31 pm

Whilst I'm guessing all creationists are anti abortion not all anti abortionists are creationists. There have been some horrendous human rights abuses in the republic because of it. Savitta Halappanavar left to die because her dying foetus was left inside to slowly poison her because it still had a heartbeat. Against all best practice protocols when the cervix is dilated and inane given obstetricians had already told her the baby was dying and NOTHING could be done to save it. And the most recent scandal of the refugee who was raped and so suicidal when denied an abortion she went on hunger strike so was force fed till 25 weeks then forced to have a Caesarian. Ruining not just her life but seriously impacting on the child as 25 weeks is the very edge of viability and the health outcomes for babies that premature are very poor. But there is no creationism embedded in Catholicism or in ROI.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... ape-friend

I can't see many links between the anti vaxers and religion at all. Maybe some scare stories about HPV were religiously motivated but MMR wasn't at all. Just lazy journalism.

I know creationism did appear in the UK early but I only really came across it a few years ago. So I guess it was pretty low key till the Americans saw a new market. That it didn't get a grip is in no small part due to bcse. You lot did a lot of the info gathering, setting out the arguments and raiding awareness.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:04 pm

They seem to be pretty much all one and the same Cathy. A lot of these extreme pro lifers turn out to be both anti vaxxers and creationists when you scratch them deep enough, from my experience anyway.

YECs also tend to be anti vaxxers, at least many of the ones I've come across on Facebook.

You can add AGWers to that mix as well.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:07 pm

I can't see many links between the anti vaxers and religion at all.


Maybe it's more of a US thing:

http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942 ... s-outbreak
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:59 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:
I can't see many links between the anti vaxers and religion at all.


Maybe it's more of a US thing:

http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942 ... s-outbreak


There is a whole lot of other bogus "science" within the fundamentalist movement. It ranges from claims that homosexuality can be "cured" by therapy to life beginning at the moment of conception.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:50 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:There is a whole lot of other bogus "science" within the fundamentalist movement. It ranges from claims that homosexuality can be "cured" by therapy to life beginning at the moment of conception.
Whereas, a cynic might say, life began with the invention of effective contraception. And could well end, without it.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:59 pm

cathy wrote:Savitta Halappanavar left to die because her dying foetus was left inside to slowly poison her because it still had a heartbeat. Against all best practice protocols when the cervix is dilated and inane given obstetricians had already told her the baby was dying and NOTHING could be done to save it.
What would be the penalty for doing that to a dog? Gaol, probably.
And the most recent scandal of the refugee who was raped and so suicidal when denied an abortion she went on hunger strike so was force fed till 25 weeks then forced to have a Caesarian.
and for that, too.
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby cathy » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:27 am

This is nothing to do with the topic. Or indeed any topic so I'm wholly expecting Brian to remove it and chastise me for time wasting. :oops: and I won't mind a bit. But it was such a fantastic thing that I had to share it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-29357472

The story of the Mars satellite is cool and newsworthy enough in itself. But look and see what's unusual about the scientists celebrating :)
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Re: After Kizmiller-What ?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:51 pm

Well, I ought to put on my smelliest labcoat and lecture you (my old chemistry teacher might have put you in the fume cupboard) for going off topic but fashion statements really need a new area of their own. I can't remember whether physicists went in for brown or grey coats in the lab in my day but I remember seeing some splendid woolly jumpers. And since the ladies must be well on the way to being mathematicians, why shouldn't they dress in colours limited only by their imaginations? That women scientists, engineers and mathematicians should be in on the interplanetary game goes without saying and anyone who disagrees can get into the fume cupboard at once.
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