National Centre for Science Education

All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended.

Moderator: Moderators

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:44 pm

I've just received this email from Scott Goodman of the NCSE. I've asked him to join our group but more importantly we are now establishing firm links with the NCSE (thanks Mikey):

Hello,

As you are no doubt aware, organizations exist, such as the National
Center for Science Education in North America, and similar
organizations elsewhere whose purpose is to combat attempts by
creationists to further their aims. I have been a member of the NCSE
and continue to participate as a member of information and strategy
groups supporting this work. I was able to have creationism,
intelligent design and a number of other guises under which
creationism travels, banned in British Columbia, Canada public
schools. With the assistance of the NCSE, our local Civil Liberties
Association, Skeptics groups and private individuals, I successfully
mounted a campaign that saw the community of Abbotsford, a long time
fundamentalist enclave, forced to give up its policies in this regard
and these requirements were extended to the B.C. school system in its
entirety.

If there is any way that I can be of service to your organization,
whether by sharing information, strategies or by public lectures and
presentations, please don't hesitate to call on me. I think that you
will find that all of us on this side of the Atlantic will have
similar sentiments. I am intimately familiar with creationist
arguments and tactics and have had considerable success in quashing
their efforts and even convincing many of their followers that what
they seek is not only scientifically untenable, but socially and
politically undesirable to say the least. Anything I can do to help
I am prepared to do.

Sincerely,
Scott Goodman
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Anonymous » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:29 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
I've just received this email from Scott Goodman of the NCSE.

This is brilliant news. We need someone who can lend their expertise and
experience to grassroots campaigning...
Anonymous
 

Postby Michael » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:46 pm

And follow NCSE's example and not confuse their anti-creationism with anti-religion.
Having used NCSE's stuff for years I have never found any material which attacks relgion.

Eugenie Scott, who is either agnostic or atheist is exemplary on this as are others like Glenn Branch. In the summer they were advertising for an organiser for a faith centred approach and had the job been advertised in Britain I would have applied

The BCSE would do well to follow their example as if its policy is alligned with secularism it will fail

Michael
Michael
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: Lancaster

Postby Timothy Chase » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:39 pm

The BCSE is aligned with neither "secularism" nor religion. Organisations and individuals who participate in the BCSE take different positions - as I believe the presence of a number of religious individuals here exemplifies. But when organisations or individuals take such positions, they do so independently of the BCSE itself and do not speak for the BCSE.
User avatar
Timothy Chase
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Postby Ian Lowe » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:34 pm

Michael wrote:And follow NCSE's example and not confuse their anti-creationism with anti-religion.
Having used NCSE's stuff for years I have never found any material which attacks relgion.

Eugenie Scott, who is either agnostic or atheist is exemplary on this as are others like Glenn Branch. In the summer they were advertising for an organiser for a faith centred approach and had the job been advertised in Britain I would have applied

The BCSE would do well to follow their example as if its policy is alligned with secularism it will fail


Eugenie Scott (who I have a lot of respect for) serves on the National Advisory Council of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

The NCSE is unequivocally a supporter of separation of church and state - I believe that the BCSE should follow the example of NCSE in this matter.

Ian.
Ian Lowe
 

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:51 pm

Michael wrote:
The BCSE would do well to follow their example as if its policy is alligned with secularism it will fail

Michael


ie if we align with the non-religious, secular, majority in the UK we're doomed. all doomed. I seem to think we've been here before. My dogma's bigger than your dogma sort of thing.

Nuff said.

Brian
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Jaf » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:54 pm

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:34:52 -0500, you wrote:

The NCSE is unequivocally a supporter of separation of church and state - I believe that the BCSE should follow the example of NCSE in this matter.

The NSS does that, and pretty well, too, in my opinion.
I think the BCSE should remain focussed on its (original) stated aim, ie, to
have only science taught in science lessons in British schools, to keep
science scientific.
The US constitution differs from ours, so the NCSE can (and probably should)
be concerned about the matter, but because of the way things work in UK,
it's just a distraction from the BCSE's main purpose.

It's far easier to break a bundle of sticks one at a time, than it is to
break them all at once.
--
JAF
anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
Keep Science Scientific
BCSE http://bcseweb.org.uk
Jaf
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: Scunthorpe, N.Lincolnshire

National Centre for Science Education

Postby John Germain » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:04 pm

The Han Chinese seem to feel the same way.

John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands

[edited to remove trailing post]
John Germain
John Germain
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: Jersey, British Channel Islands

Postby Ian Lowe » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:10 pm

To be honest, I'm more just reacting to Michael's post. we discussed this over here:

http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32

and the discussions we have had were pretty clear - this discussion space is supposed to be that very rare and difficult thing, a neutral space.

There's an area for discussing secular issues, and an area for discussing scriptural/theological areas, despite the general distaste of each area to the opposing camp.

The very sensible principle here is - compromise. build bridges between groups, not barriers against them.

Ian.
Ian Lowe
 

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Anonymous » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:40 pm

JimTheBrit wrote:

Stopping the teaching of creationism in UK state schools is not the same as to have only science taught in science lessons in British schools. Can someone clarify the situation please?

Creationism is the only paradigm, to date, which has managed to worm its
way into UK school science classrooms. The aim of the BCSE is to
eradicate this from those science classrooms and to promote the teaching
of evolutionary biology. It is not the job of the BCSE to produce a
curriculum.

Should another serious threat arise in the future, then the BCSE will
adapt and take action as required. I do not foresee that need arising
for quite some time to come.

Therefore the statement on the BCSE home page is entirely accurate.

Mike
(one of the moderators)
Anonymous
 

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:41 pm

Ian Lowe wrote:To be honest, I'm more just reacting to Michael's post. we discussed this over here:

http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32

and the discussions we have had were pretty clear - this discussion space is supposed to be that very rare and difficult thing, a neutral space.


But:
Free For All
All are welcome to this forum, which is for debating the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in schools. This forum can be boisterous, and you should not participate if easily offended


If we can't have a friendly spat here, where can we have it? Agreed it might be off topic (said that before, not a good idea) but it's certainly not 'Scripture' and doesn't fit with the narrow description of 'Secular Debate' which is described as relating only to church-state separation.

There's an area for discussing secular issues, and an area for discussing scriptural/theological areas, despite the general distaste of each area to the opposing camp.

But never the twain shall meet. People can tell us that only the religious can save our s/o/u/l/s/ cause, but disagreement with them is frowned on.

They may be right - but this is a question of tactics and we need evidence for this, just as on any other question.

Brian
User avatar
Brian Jordan
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Jaf » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:43 pm

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:25:32 -0500, you wrote:

Stopping the teaching of creationism in UK state schools is not the same as to have only science taught in science lessons in British schools. Can someone clarify the situation please?

Yes. I'm not a university professor, just a bloke who cares. Sometimes I
make mistakes.
All the same, though what I said may differ from the web page, it isn't
necessarily wrong.
If creationism gets taught in a general RI lesson, so what? To me, it's all
mythology, and might as well be taught alongside the Homeric tales, Norse
Sagas, and Satanism; so long as the children are taught *about* it, and not
indoctrinated *in* it. There are those who would have all religion removed
from schools (and I'm amongst them), but as it is already there, the poor
little darlings might as well be exposed to the full panoply.

But, One stick at a time.

And it's too late at night to do this.


--
JAF
anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
Keep Science Scientific
BCSE http://bcseweb.org.uk
Jaf
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: Scunthorpe, N.Lincolnshire

National Centre for Science Education

Postby Anonymous » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:05 pm

JimTheBrit wrote:

In the science class, fair enough, but as jaf points out, there's the issue of creationism being taught in RI. What's the BCSE's stance on this?

RI classes are not science classes. As the tenet of ID, as far as the
facade is concerned, is that it is scientific, then the BCSE fights it
in the science classroom.

The content of RI classes is a separate issue and one I would oppose the
BCSE ever getting in to: those are issues for other organisations. The
American NCSE does not get involved in religious instruction classes in
the US and neither should we as the BCSE.
Anonymous
 

National Centre for Science Education

Postby John Germain » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:13 pm

I have no idea.

My personal opinion is that, to paraphrase Reith: Let the Cranks talk to the Cranks.

John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands

-----Original Message-----
From: JimTheBrit [mailto:jbs13uk@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:58 PM
To: freeforall@bcseweb.org.uk
Subject: [BCSE FreeForAll] Re: National Centre for Science Education



mikeybrass wrote:
The aim of the BCSE is to eradicate this from those science classrooms and to promote
the teaching of evolutionary biology.
In the science class, fair enough, but as jaf points out, there's the issue of creationism
being taught in RI. What's the BCSE's stance on this?
John Germain
John Germain
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: Jersey, British Channel Islands

Postby Timothy Chase » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:18 pm

jaf wrote:To me, it's all mythology, and might as well be taught alongside
the Homeric tales, Norse Sagas, and Satanism; so long as the
children are taught *about* it, and not indoctrinated *in* it,...


Please tread lightly when you speak of Homer as I am rather partial to him.
User avatar
Timothy Chase
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Next

Return to Free For All

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron