Krebs Cycle

This forum is for the discussion of the evidence for evolution. Anyone is welcome to post, however, scripture is not allowed. As the title says, Science Only please!

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Postby Derek Potter » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:35 pm

Timothy Chase wrote:All of these are points I made in:
http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7783#7783

Then why repeat them? They didn't answer what I asked first time round. Or perhaps I don't understand you again.
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Postby Timothy Chase » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:15 pm

Time to feed the crows - no doubt they are getting anxious by now...

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"Humor is such a subjective thing, don't you think, Mollari."
- Cartagia to Londo: "The Long Night"
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Postby Timothy Chase » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:37 am

Widespread distribution of archaeal reverse gyrase in thermophilic bacteria suggests a complex history of vertical inheritance and lateral gene transfers
Céline Brochier-Armanet and Patrick Forterre
Archaea 2:83–93 (2006)

AMP-forming acetyl-CoA synthetases in Archaea show unexpected diversity in substrate utilization
Cheryl Ingram-Smith and Kerry S. Smith
Archaea 2:95–107 (2006)

Lineage-specific partitions in archaeal transcription
Richard M. R. Coulson, Nathalie Touboul and Christos A. Ouzounis
Archaea 2:117–125 (2006)

Gene decay in archaea
M. W. J. van Passel, C. S. Smillie and H. Ochman
Archaea 2:137–143 (2006)

http://archaea.ws

Subscription would be around 50 pounds, but some articles are available online.
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Postby Derek Potter » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:21 am

Timothy Chase wrote:Widespread distribution of archaeal reverse gyrase in thermophilic bacteria suggests a complex history of vertical inheritance and lateral gene transfers
Céline Brochier-Armanet and Patrick Forterre
Archaea 2:83–93 (2006)

AMP-forming acetyl-CoA synthetases in Archaea show unexpected diversity in substrate utilization
Cheryl Ingram-Smith and Kerry S. Smith
Archaea 2:95–107 (2006)

Lineage-specific partitions in archaeal transcription
Richard M. R. Coulson, Nathalie Touboul and Christos A. Ouzounis
Archaea 2:117–125 (2006)

Gene decay in archaea
M. W. J. van Passel, C. S. Smillie and H. Ochman
Archaea 2:137–143 (2006)

http://archaea.ws

Subscription would be around 50 pounds, but some articles are available online.

It was a simple question about specific evidence. Do you really expect me to spend spend fifty quid and goodness knows how many months grappling with unfamiliar biochemistry to find the answer myself? If it's too complex to summarise then say so but in that case your original suggestion is left as an unsupported assertion.
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Postby Timothy Chase » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:56 pm

Heck, no!

As you are aware, currently we don't know how far we will get in this area. But the neat thing is that the research exists, it is being done, and we are trying discover more. And of course, for those who are curious about it, at least some of the material is on the web. Curiosity, discovery, a sense of wonder. The most precious thing in the world as far as I am concerned - whatever one's interests. One of my big interests is the evolution of viruses, and more specifically phages - as phages are responsible for much of the evolution of life.

For example, both retroviruses and spliceosomal introns descended from a common ancestor with class II introns, where class II are actually a form of retroelement in themselves. Spliceosomal introns are responsible for the fact that while you have only 25,000 protein-coding genes, you have approximately 75,000 proteins.

Likewise, exogenous retroviruses are responsible for the endogenous retroviruses, and as both endogenous retroviruses and the relics of their propogation are co-opted, they give rise to cis-regulatory regions, alternate promoters, gene duplication, variable length tandem repeats, and other elements which result in the evolution of much of life's evolvability. Approximately 49% of your genome consists of this material. Evolution is the co-evolution of cellular and viral life. I strongly suspect that both were there - in the beginning.

But I am still quite interested in archaea, too. Didn't know that their evolution was as influenced by lateral gene transfer as bacteria - perhaps even more so - or how widespread they are. Still don't. But when I drop some dollars in a few days, some of it may be on a tech journal devoted to the origin of life. I am not sure. Phages, archaea, origin of life - hmmm. I will have to think about it. Damn journals are expensive - typically outside of my price range. But finances are improving, at least temporarily.

The realisation that the normativity of epistemology is more fundamental than the normativity of ethics is something I came to about eighteen years ago. Anyone who genuinely understands this principle realises that it is just about the most important principle of human existence.
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Postby Timothy Chase » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:24 pm

Timothy Chase wrote:...

http://archaea.ws

Subscription would be around 50 pounds, but some articles are available online.

http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7812#7812

PS

I should try to be more clear - sometimes that gets lost when being informal: when I said that some articles are available online, I mean freely available - but only the first issue is intended to be permanently available without a subscription.

... for anyone who is interested.
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Postby Derek Potter » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:59 am

Timothy Chase wrote: Evolution is the co-evolution of cellular and viral life. I strongly suspect that both were there - in the beginning.
Well probably not during the inflationary epoch, but maybe when things had cooled down a little :) Seriously, yes it's an appealing idea, especially given that in an RNA world scenerio there might not be any distinction between a parasite and its host, all that counts is whether the cut-and-paste abilities of a given sequence help its survival.
The realisation that the normativity of epistemology is more fundamental than the normativity of ethics is something I came to about eighteen years ago. Anyone who genuinely understands this principle realises that it is just about the most important principle of human existence.
Well, in my case I genuinely don't understand the words; but as you credit me with understanding the principle anyway, I guess I don't need to.
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