Extremist values vs British values?

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Extremist values vs British values?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:44 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... etary.html
"Nurseries that teach creationism as scientific fact will be ineligible for taxpayer funding, under the new rules."
"The rules on creationism will bring nurseries into line with state-funded schools. A government source said: “We are absolutely not saying, 'You can’t teach Bible stories’.”"

They want 'fundamental' British values taught. Rather than fundamentalist values. Perhaps easier to know that the values aren't the latter than to know they are the former?

Nicky Morgan being a Christian as I understand it.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Sorry but I'm really not clear how this is going to work bearing in mind that most nurseries are privately run enterprises and state run ones may be lovely but usually attached to schools with very limited time slots (mornings or afternoons not both) and hence utterly useless for anyone working because of their lack of flexibility in hours!

Does it refer to the free 15 hours for 3/4 year olds that is currently available? Will that only be allowed in certain nurseries? In which case what about 2 year olds? Help with child are costs for those are dependent on income. And what about child minders? You can also use your free 15 hours with them. Will they be regulated? Nursery providers also offer pre and after school care and holiday clubs for working parents of school age children. What about those? Or church run holiday play schemes?

I worked part time when mine were little but odd hours. Some whole days, some half days, some evening classes. I could not use a state funded nursery. Nor could any one else I knew that worked because they couldn't offer the hours I needed. So the biggest users of nurseries are working mothers forced to use private ones.

I certainly got my free hours when they got to three or whatever age it was then, but paid for the balance. When they were under 3 I paid for the whole lot. So how would I fare? Would the free funding be removed from creationist nurseries. Because all that would mean is the parent just continuing to pay for the rest.

I'm also confused as to how to judge. In a world where Peppa Pig and Iggle Piggle and Santa are real how much effect is Noah's Ark actually going to have? How are you going to tell there is creationism? Isn't a lot of the anti extremism stuff covered by the registration requirements to be multi cultural and cover all festivals?

Plus Science for that age group is sand and water and discovery play. If the stuff I learnt about piagets stages of development still hold true. So how will it be checked?

The only thing I can think of is actively teaching them science is wrong.

Great idea but where is the detail. How is it actually going to work out.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:29 am

When the matter first came up, well before the government thought about it, the complaint was that since the money followed the child, the state was paying for half-time nursery at private schools run by dodgy sects and thus subsidising creationist schools. Schools that would not otherwise be given public money.
I don't recall any details of what indoctrination they were feeding the little ones with.
I've just come across this, though:
Any nursery that teaches creationism as scientific fact will be stripped of taxpayer funding. This is unlikely to apply to Christian nurseries as they tend to be more balanced. However large numbers of Muslim nurseries refuse to accept evolution. The rules will bring nurseries into line with schools. A government source stressed: “We are absolutely not saying, 'You can’t teach Bible stories’.”
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/08/Toddlers-At-Risk-Of-Extremist-Brainwashing-Says-Education-Secretary
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:13 pm

Wow that's quite a nasty site Brian. And incorrect given the other articles have placed more emphasis on creationism and the BHA bit mentions mainly ACE and CST schools.

There are Islamic nurseries which is alarming.

Now I'm not exactly sure how these places get registered. Nor am I sure how you can prevent the free hours if the places are registered. And all early years providers have to be registered with LEA and Ofsted. But if these places have gotten registered then surely precluding them from the free hours is saying they weren't suitable in the first place.

I love hearing it on the news cos of the message it sends but the nuts and bolts are very hazy.

Would prefer to hear that there registration will be rescinded.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:10 pm

Ooh how I love going to the TiS site after headlines like this. Makes life worth living. Yet again the old, old secular humanists bullshit. Except I'm secular and I'm definitely not a humanist. Evolution ain't humanist either, it just is. And creationism is just nonsense for liars. I feel a host of joyful exclamation marks coming along just in case Paul is reading!!!

Anyway for anyone in need of cheering, here are the burning martyrs at their persecuted best.

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/i ... nu-63.html
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:06 pm

Oh dear! Thanks for regularly checking up on Lies About Science - I keep suffering from the delusion that it's defunct. Any joy at seeing them bleat is obliterated by the fact that they're still there to churn out the old moaning rubbish.
I didn't check out anything else on the Breibart site. I rather thought that they were implying that the government was using Islamic creationism as a stick to beat Muslim nurseries with. It's difficult to imagine how fundamentalists of either stripe would be indoctrinating nursery children with creationism - but they're no doubt all very imaginative! I think I'll stick with the conclusion that it's all about keeping public money from private schools that go against government guidelines for older children.
Edit:
Oh, and did you notice that a bit further down they threw a nasty ad hominem at Jonny Scaramanga? I think it could have been he, btw. who first spotted the nursery funding.

Edit further:
Just looked a bit more at the Breibart site. Not a pretty sight. Evidently trashing the Muslims ranks higher with them than the YECism one might expect them to support.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:14 pm

Yep briebart is not a pretty site/sight. Sort of UKIPs right wing friends. Deeply racist sexist but most famously of all climate changer deniers.

Don't know if you remember a programme about science denial a couple of years ago with Paul Nurse? He eviscerated one of Briebarts main contributors - a James Delingpole. Who used to write for the Telegraph but found it too right wing ha ha.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vuQLvK6kxeU

I think james Delingpole is one of the more moderate members of a Briebart.

Any their whole thrust is wrong. Most of the identified schools are either allied to sobbing Sylv or Cheatdi Jewish if you believe the BHA site. Which I'm not sure whether I do or not generally, but in this case they seem to be spot on.
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TiS - economical with the truth

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:51 pm

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/i ... nu-63.html
This article is both rather dishonest and ill-informed.

"To believe that God created the world is both reasonable and has an empirical scientific basis." The author, who is hiding his identity yet again, is pretending that creationism (most people at TiS are science rejecting YECs) is the same thing as theism/belief in the Christian god as creator/Christian faith - in order to pretend that the Secretary of State (a Christian though they either do not know or do not care) is launching an attack on religion (not only Christianity and not primarily Christianity). Extremists always claim that the extreme ones are everybody else disagreeing with them (whether moderates or another kind of extremist).

But YEC-ism (blanket science denial and wishing to turn the clock back on social policy as well as scientific awareness) is an extreme position in today's world. The anonymous author seems not to know - or not to care - that almost to a man/woman YECs, especially in America, are extremely right wing and intolerant of other viewpoints (and are prepared to tell untruths to spread their influence and discredit others). Fundamentalist Christianity - those adhering claim that moderate Christians are second-class disobedient 'compromiser' folk - is very much bound up with right wing politics and highly conservative social attitudes (not all of them bad but they are based on prejudice and on Bible thumping rather than on reason or fairness).

The writer claims, based on their personal faith, not on any obvious evidence, that "To believe that matter given enough time (billions of years) will turn into people is scientifically preposterous and based on the religion of atheistic humanism/atheistic naturalism".

The article looks like it was written in a rush.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:40 am

[quote="Brian Jordan]
Just looked a bit more at the Breibart site. Not a pretty sight. Evidently trashing the Muslims ranks higher with them than the YECism one might expect them to support.[/quote]

Brietbart is an extreme wingnut online "news" service. As is the norm with US right wing news services it mixes punditry with news to the extent that the two are indistinguishable. Andrew Brietbart, its founder, was a hack on the throroughy disreputable Washington Times, owned by the Moonies. He died a couple of years ago whereupon the wingnouts claimed he was killed by Barak Obama because he was a threat (no evidence provided, of course). Paranoia runs deep in the poilitical right in the USA.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby jon_12091 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:18 am

Touble at t' Mill

And the CI is threatning to let the lawyers out...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-28746382
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:07 am

Ah yes Jon. And here also
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ojan-horse

It would appear that preventing extremism and forcing schools to teach science honestly will have horrendous unintended consequences. The very terms mother, father, husband and wife will be torn, that's right torn, from the dictionaries. Forever!! For how could the godless secularist appreciate the concept of a small innocent child saying muuuuum over and over again.

As for Christmas :x That much threatened festival cannot survive the weight of evolution. For how can Santa and Baby Jesus withstand the onslaught of billions of years.

No, mark my words if this legislation goes thru and schools are forced to teach science properly and not engage in discriminatory practises you will all be torn from your beds and forced into gay marriages. Kidnapped and transgendered on the streets. A cackling Richard Dawkins will burn the last mince pies in front of weeping Christians and Santa will be torn limb from limb by the baying mobs of the BHA.

Or maybe not. Maybe CI is just loopy.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby jon_12091 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:23 am

At least one union seems to think there might be unintended consequences, but I'm guessing not in hysterical vein of the CI's claims. Based on media reporting I am wondering whether the governments knee-jerk response rather tangles up issues of teaching personal beliefs and opionions as 'facts' and more difficult issues of religious and cultural values.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:49 am

"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:43 am

"The tiny minority of secular atheists should not determine the agenda of education in our land." The agenda on science teaching not including any form of creationism (the main one normally being YEC-ism though sometimes it is simply anti-evolutionism especially in the Muslim context) is being determined by all those in the UK who are not religious creationists (that includes many people of faith) and who want tomorrow's adults to have a good grounding in science ie to be appropriately scientifically literate.

The small minority here is people who have the same anti-scientific beliefs regarding specifics of origins and 'historical' science as Truth in Science.
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Re: Extremist values vs British values?

Postby cathy » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:22 am

Not creationism per se but an example of how keen Gove was to promote his policies. And perhaps a warning that the rush to get lots of Govian schools would take precedence over checks

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ted-checks
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