Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

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Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Brian Jordan » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:41 pm

...leaving even cynical old me gasping at the foolish ACE "science" teaching. Apparently the antediluvian sky was sky-blue pink. No mention of yellow dots in it, though. Although energy-giving snowflakes are also mentioned - maybe they were yellow dots in those days. Demolition by Paul Braterman quoted.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/sep/25/pseudoscience-creationist-schools-uk-accelerated-christian-education-ace
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:44 pm

Well, I guess we now know that Job 38:22-23 does not contain a secret scientific insight previously known only to God.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:30 am

I've discovered a matching article to Jonny's by the Guardian's Andrew Brown who "writes on religion".
Why creationism matters – and irks so many people
The rejection of Darwinian evolution is freighted with moral meaning, especially for atheists
It doesn't much matter, he says, implying that only wicked atheists get worked up about creationism.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2014/sep/25/why-creationism-matters-rejection-darwinism-atheists
He links to a previous article by himself, about the Imam who was driven out of his mosque with death threats for denying creationism. Despite his denials, he seems to be preaching cultural relativism to excuse the creationists - who, he points out to his credit, include many Muslims.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/dec/04/creationist-fatwa-wahhabi-islam-usama-hasan?guni=Article:in%20body%20link
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:19 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:I've discovered a matching article to Jonny's by the Guardian's Andrew Brown who "writes on religion".
Why creationism matters – and irks so many people
The rejection of Darwinian evolution is freighted with moral meaning, especially for atheists
It doesn't much matter, he says, implying that only wicked atheists get worked up about creationism.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2014/sep/25/why-creationism-matters-rejection-darwinism-atheists
He links to a previous article by himself, about the Imam who was driven out of his mosque with death threats for denying creationism. Despite his denials, he seems to be preaching cultural relativism to excuse the creationists - who, he points out to his credit, include many Muslims.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/dec/04/creationist-fatwa-wahhabi-islam-usama-hasan?guni=Article:in%20body%20link


I read the article earlier today and have concluded that Andrew Brown is off his rocker. He simply doesn't recognise that the problem with creationism is political - to get religious fundmantalism into state schools. That is to say, to get it promoted at the expense of the taxpapyer.

It doesn't stop at creationism. The US fundamentalists are pushing hard to get faux history, in the form of a nasty concoction of extreme right wing nationalism and deeply itollerant religion, into US state funded schools. The leading fraud behind this is a senior Republican, David Barton. They really are trying to re-write history as an ideology with no reference to the facts.

Brown doesn't "get" the political ideology behind it all.

Still, neither does a huge swathe of the "New Atheist" movement get it either.

It seems to me that the "battle" is ultimatly between liberal democracy (which necessitates a secular state" and nationalism, which is essentially authoritarian, The UK should know all about this with the rise of the SNP (basically benign, though) and UKIP (England's unhinged answer to the US Tea Party).
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby cathy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:03 pm

The article claims that four universities are accepting ICCE including Bath. Second child is looking at Bath for physics couldn't find ICCE listed anywhere in its entrance qualifications. Couldn't find it listed in the other threes entrance qualifications either. Is it true or is it another bit of BHA disingenuous hype?

Can anyone link me to it on their website cos I can't find it and don't trust em that much. Want facts before I complain.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby cathy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:10 pm

There has now been two admissions tutors from courses at the relevant universities on the comments section under Johnny's article stating they would NOT accept ICCE qualifications for their courses. No details of the FOI thing from which the original claims were made are being given as it's hoped it will be a newspaper story. As the source seems to be BHA I'm not sure about the accuracy of the university link is at all!

The rest is just appalling. Children taught nonsemse. Child abuse of the worse kind and evidence that there should be regulation of private school curriculums.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:20 pm

cathy wrote:The article claims that four universities are accepting ICCE including Bath. Second child is looking at Bath for physics couldn't find ICCE listed anywhere in its entrance qualifications. Couldn't find it listed in the other threes entrance qualifications either. Is it true or is it another bit of BHA disingenuous hype?

Can anyone link me to it on their website cos I can't find it and don't trust em that much. Want facts before I complain.



A quick search didn't turn up anything just now, but perhaps Cathy should ask Jonny (via his Leaving Fundamentalism blog or privately) for more details of his comments about the BHA FOI Request or else details of who to contact at the BHA for more details?
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:35 pm

I think Ashley's right: this needs to be bottomed asap. Ask Jonny directly - I'm sure we could find and divulge an email address for something this important.
Without looking anything up, the problem may stem from some (no doubt divorced from government for cash or responsibility reasons) quasi-official body accepting ACE "qualifications" as foreign certificates supposedly equivalent to UK ones.
However, once I've posted this I'll PM Jonny who is, after all, a member of this forum.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:26 pm

Because of a forum technicality, Jonny can't post to this forum: I'll try to fix it asap. Meanwhile, he's PM'd Cathy and me, for which thanks Jonny,
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Re:

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:44 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... m-atheists
"Knowledge of history, like knowledge of science, is won with difficulty, and by moral virtues as well as purely intellectual ones. To throw them away dishonours our ancestors and cheats our descendants."
He is right in that.
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Andrew Brown in The Guardian...

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:26 pm

More lies and half-truths about evolution theory - from a young earth creationist who epitomises lying about science:
http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

Who shall we trust? The word of Andrew Brown? Or the word of Ken Ham (who also quotes from the Bible a bit even though the Bible never discusses or evaluates any scientific theories as far as I am aware)? Man's Word - or Man's Word.

Personally I prefer to trust the word of people who tell the truth and provide facts and do not try to confuse people and keep them from learning.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:29 am

As per usual, Ham accuses Brown of not having been there when fossils were formed. Pot, kettle, goose, gander as per usual.
Maybe Ham's real ire is because Brown, as I read his article, says creationism doesn't much matter. A far greater heresy than claiming it is wrong.
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Re: Jonny Scaramanga in Guardian...

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:40 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:As per usual, Ham accuses Brown of not having been there when fossils were formed. Pot, kettle, goose, gander as per usual.
Maybe Ham's real ire is because Brown, as I read his article, says creationism doesn't much matter. A far greater heresy than claiming it is wrong.


Andrew Brown has got it hopelessly wrong and Ham#s blog clearly shows why. Ham states "Answering the question of why creation matters and why the debate gets so emotional is easy when you have a Book from the all-knowing God who plainly tells you why!

That’s why I took time during my debate with Bill Nye “the Science Guy” last February to clearly show that the creation/evolution question is really a clash of worldviews." (my use of bold letters.)

Creationism is a political movement, both in itself (trying to get it into state schools' science lessons and universities) and as part of the agenda of the deeply conservative and reactionary religious right, including theocracy. It is not compatible with the liberal democracy of the western world. One is reminded that Ham appears to be linked up with elements of the neo-Nazi League of the South. Heck, time and time again we've come across politicised creationist kooks (Sorensen being a recent example in this forum), including numerous US Presidential candidates (all well to the right of the political spectrum, even by US standards). Ham is right to point out it is all part of a "worldview", better known as ideology. And the ideology is never wrong, only people who let it down.
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