Not enough atoms in the Universe for life:Dr. John Grinstein

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Not enough atoms in the Universe for life:Dr. John Grinstein

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:10 am

This claim that there are not enough atoms in the Universe for life to have arisen by chance was made by this well qualified scientist:

http://www.jgrinstein.com/

on Revelation TV. Lots of talk about a fruit diet preventing cancer etc. although I'm sure I heard results of a study which refuted this claim a couple of weeks ago. I assume Grienstein is a YEC (he would not be on Revelation TV otherwise). Grienstein is on RTV at the moment so you should catch the end of his talk. It's also repeated on Genesis TV at 1.30 pm. He will also be on Genesis TV for 2 hours this evening from 9.00pm. The second hour of the programme is a live phone-in so those on the forum who are far more qualified in biology than I am can put questions to him. Genesis TV is on Sky Digital channel 772. There's also a live webstream.

The website they were giving out on R mornings was different to the above:

http://www.gc100.com/

It should be interesting this evening since Grinstein would not admit to Conder that the earth/Universe was 6,000 years old claiming that the bible does not mention dates from the moment of creation but rather from the birth of Adam or Noah. Expect some lively questioning from 9.00pm this evening !!
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Postby Paula Thomas » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:05 pm

The only current reference to a Dr John Grinstein is in relation to Nutritional Medicine Research UK. in particular he seems to have written a clinical trial proposal. See the bottom of this page for some interesting info.

In 2005 he wrote another clinical trial proposal for Food Biochemistry Research UK.

Biochemistry Research UK appears to be the overall body.

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Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:41 pm

The Clinical trial website contained some of the powerpoint slides that Dr. Grinstein was showing to Howard Conder this morning Paula.

Here are a couple of links to the news story that I heard a couple of weeks ago, which seems to be at odds with Grinstein's theories:

http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/healthte ... y/1603766/

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health ... 06477.html
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Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 pm

Paula Thomas wrote:See the bottom of this page for some interesting info.
I can't see why he's linking to the American Association of Clinical Chemists' "Labtests on Line". It's a reputable professional resource stressing the importance of Evidence Based Medicine. Perhaps so that he can link to a page as "Experts Disagree" which is in fact headed on the site as "Experts Disagree on the Utility of PSA tests". This is a complicated problem, involving both the diagnostic value of the tests and the clinical value of intervention in early prostate cancer. I can only wonder if it's included as a "teach the controversy" thingy - and the rest of the AACC site wrapped around to give his argument credibility.

As for his proposed clinical trial - where's the double blind here? Single blind, for that matter. Hell, the whole thing seems to be based substantiallly on the judgment of carers. Nor is there any indication of what the diet in question consists of. Not just on the trial proposal - not anywhere. Apart. that is, from a reference to
a line of purely organic vegetable extracts, rich in amino acids required for the synthesis of dopamine receptors
- which is about as impressive as "eye of newt"! http://www.rg-40.com/html/july__05.html
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:18 pm

Paula Thomas wrote:The only current reference to a Dr John Grinstein is in relation to Nutritional Medicine Research UK. in particular he seems to have written a clinical trial proposal. See the bottom of this page for some interesting info.

In 2005 he wrote another clinical trial proposal for Food Biochemistry Research UK.

Biochemistry Research UK appears to be the overall body.

Paula


Nutritional Medicine Research appears to be run from his home. I am wondering whether this person is for real because I found a reference to his PhD on a web site of a diploma mill agent - see http://www.buy-degrees-online.com/phd_t ... ation.html. He doesn't seem to have any track record at all in published papers but appears to have been studying in the early 1980s and his web site seems to suggest that he published his PhD in 1994. The whole set up looks to be stunningly amateur. I've got a gut feeling he is peddling quack medicine.
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Postby Paula Thomas » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:56 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Nutritional Medicine Research appears to be run from his home. I am wondering whether this person is for real because I found a reference to his PhD on a web site of a diploma mill agent - see http://www.buy-degrees-online.com/phd_t ... ation.html. He doesn't seem to have any track record at all in published papers but appears to have been studying in the early 1980s and his web site seems to suggest that he published his PhD in 1994. The whole set up looks to be stunningly amateur. I've got a gut feeling he is peddling quack medicine.


I agree. I've drawn this to Ben Goldacre's attention (via his forum) so watch out for the fireworks.

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Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:33 pm

The plot thickens. He claims, as "Nutritional Medicine Research" (apparently to USA) to have a "Biochemistry Laboratory" to which tumour drainage fluid from a UK patient was sent.
We asked Dr O’Connor to arrange that samples of the fluid be sent to our Biochemistry Laboratory together with a copy of the hospital’s pathology cell report on the pleural fluid.
The stuff he does in his lab seems to be well away from what would be mainstream biochemistry here, but then it is the USA. What a man's gotta do...
http://www.br13.com/html/1b_gc10-100_.html
Anyway, like Ben Goldacre's, my hackles rise at words beginning with "Nutrition" when used without clear justification.
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Not enough atoms in the Universe for life....Dr. John Grinst

Postby Dave Oldridge » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:07 pm

On 27 Jul 2007 at 5:10, Peter Henderson wrote:

This claim that there are not enough atoms in the Universe for
life to have arisen by chance was made by this well qualified
scientist:

http://www.jgrinstein.com/

on Revelation TV. Lots of talk about a fruit diet preventing
cancer etc. although I'm sure I heard results of a study which
refuted this claim a couple of weeks ago. I asume Grienstein is
a YEC (he would not be on Revelation TV otherwise). Grienstein
is on RTV at the moment so you should catch the end of his talk.
He will also be on Genesis TV for 2 hours this evening from
9.00pm. The second hour of the programme is a live phone-in so
those on the forum who are far more qualified in biology than I
am can put questions to him. Genesis TV is on Sky Digital
channel 772. There's also a live webstream.

The website they were giving out on R mornings was different to
the above:

http://www.gc100.com/

Both these links are down this morning. But this "number of
atoms" argument is bogus from the get-go. Very highly improbable
things happen all the time. In fact, they can be MADE to happen
quite trivially.

If electrons could be close-packed, the number that would fit in
the observable universe is about 10^130. Compared to the number
of possible 48-hand bridge tournaments, this number is extremely
small (by about 100 of orders of magnitude).

When you shuffle 52 cards RANDOMLY and deal 13 hands to each of
four players there are precisely
53,644,737,765,488,792,839,237,440,000
DIFFERENT ways it can go down.

A 48-hand duplicate bridge tournament consists of 48 such hands,
usually dealt by one or two people at the beginning of the
session.

The probability of that EXACT 48-hand tournament being dealt in
the precise ordering of the hands is one in about 1.04 x 10^1379,
which dwarfs the number of electrons you could cram into the
visible universe by about 100 orders of magnitude (the number has
roughly 100 times as many digits).

The creationist liars (and they are lying, either about their
expertise in the math and biochemistry or about the actual math
itself--on judgment day WHICH lie will probably not be important)
want their dupes to believe that it's flat-out impossible for
life to evolve from basic chemistry. But they sweep under the
rug the fact that natural selection VASTLY improves the odds once
it starts happening. And from what is known about simple self-
replicating molecules, that is almost immediately the replicators
start reproducing...

In short, the whole "argument" is a scam to deceive the ignorant.
The use of such TRICKS is why I claim that creationism is a
latter-day heresy and not any branch of Christian orthodoxy.
Whenever a movement claiming to be teaching godliness starts
incorporating deliberate, rebellious sins like this in its daily
repertoire, then you can be sure that whatever spirit is
inspiring it is NOT HOLY!!!



--

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Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:05 am

This appears to be the Medicinal Compound in question:
http://www.gc100.com/index.html
Still no mention of a diet, though.
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Postby jon_12091 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am

If that guys a 'PhD' then I expect my professorial chair very shortly! His thesis is utter crap and is a marvellous exemplar for how not to do science, he fails to take into account other factors like diet, lifestyle & genetics, ignores the fact that there are long lived communities at sea level. I've actually read better creationist geology papers! I can't comment on his biochemistry, but I suspect a half decent biochemist could pull it appart in miniutes. Quite frankly leaves me spitting teeth that someone can claim a 'PhD' on the basis of it.

While he seems willing to take certain aspects of the bible literally he also willing accepts mainstream geochemical science were it suits him (though I think he misquotes it), which most normal creationists ignore/denigrate out of hand because it effectively sinks their ideas at conception.

As for GC100 I can't help but think I remember a media storm over dodgy plant-based cancer 'cures' a couple of years ago...

"Unfortunately, the amount of GC100 that can be produced each year is strictly limited"

And the above statement alones makes me very, very suspicious!
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