Discussion on setting up of Irish Atheist association

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Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:28 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Michael wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:
psiloiordinary wrote:Good luck!


Just for the record, I've decided to pull out of the July event in Dublin. The reason is complex but it looks as if some fairly obnoxious fundamentalsit atheists are gonna turn up. I prefer the company of more level headed people. Seems to me that they are as equally as bigoted and extreme as creationists.

It's a pity things should have turned out like this but when it came to the crunch, I really had no option to do otherwise. I would have had nothing to contribute and would have largely felt out of place.


This made me laugh as I have just had to deal with a fairly obnoxious fundamentalist on Premier !!

He argues that some parables are historical!!


The fundamentalists in the USA scream that those they disagree with are all liberals. What I found was that an incomfotable number were just the opposite - far to the right, intollerant and divorced from the real world. There was a strong element (common to fundamentalists) of vindictiveness. The effing and blinding and the use of the c word to describe anyone they disagreed with just about summed it up.

What worried me deeply was being involved in something that was little more than a learn nothing forget nothing bunch of ideologues. Over the last few years I learned a lot from liberal Christians in the USA and it has proved invauluable knowledge. It doesn't mean I (or anyone else) need agree with them. It's about finding common cause and understanding the issues.

I'm prepared to fight tough battles in politics but am not prepared to piss in the wind. My involvement would have caused damage to the BCSE. We've got very limited resources and I have to constantly think as to how we might best use them. Once we started coming under attack by one of the effers and blinders, I just walked away. I'd warned repeatedly that there was a problem with some people's position but when someone doesn't listen, there is nothing one can do otherwise. I wasn't the only person to walk away, btw.

Politics is about resolving conflict, not about imposing ideology. It requires compromise and when compromise is missing the outcome is either a disaster or nothing gets done.

What is it they want, what can realistically be acheived and how do they go about it? All three questions were ignored. When I raised them, it got very nasty, indeed.

Time to move on.
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:13 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Just for the record, I've decided to pull out of the July event in Dublin. The reason is complex but it looks as if some fairly obnoxious fundamentalsit atheists are gonna turn up. I prefer the company of more level headed people. Seems to me that they are as equally as bigoted and extreme as creationists.


The other thing I forgot to add was that the National Center of Science Education in the USA was under attack as well. Specifically one attack was that Eugenie Scott accepted NOMA and NOMA should be an all out target.

I'm affraid that won't do. The NCSE is not an atheists' organisation and, in achieving its aims, works closely with Americans United which, IIRC, is headed by an ordained minister. NCSE recognises political reality.
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Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:38 pm

This made me laugh as I have just had to deal with a fairly obnoxious fundamentalist on Premier !!

He argues that some parables are historical!!
Michael


Michael: Have you been on the radio again ? I assume it was yesterday's edition of unbelievable ? Who was the fundamentalist ?
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Postby Michael » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:14 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:
This made me laugh as I have just had to deal with a fairly obnoxious fundamentalist on Premier !!

He argues that some parables are historical!!
Michael


Michael: Have you been on the radio again ? I assume it was yesterday's edition of unbelievable ? Who was the fundamentalist ?


No , it was on their forum
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:24 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:
Just for the record, I've decided to pull out of the July event in Dublin. The reason is complex but it looks as if some fairly obnoxious fundamentalsit atheists are gonna turn up. I prefer the company of more level headed people. Seems to me that they are as equally as bigoted and extreme as creationists.


The other thing I forgot to add was that the National Center of Science Education in the USA was under attack as well. Specifically one attack was that Eugenie Scott accepted NOMA and NOMA should be an all out target.

I'm afraid that won't do. The NCSE is not an atheists' organisation and, in achieving its aims, works closely with Americans United which, IIRC, is headed by an ordained minister. NCSE recognises political reality because it is a political organisation.
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Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:29 pm

The NCSE is not an atheists' organisation


The fact that they have a spiritual director (Peter Hess ?) shows they aren't Roger and wisely, they take a neutral stance on spriritual matters (AiG would still regard them as a Secular Humanist organisation though).

No , it was on their forum


I must have a look and see who's posting over there then.

Premier would be somewhat less dogmatic than some religious broadcasters (e.g. Revelation TV) and the fact that they've had yourself as a guest on a number of occasions confirms this although, they have been pushing some of Paul Taylor nonsense on their website (they do add a disclaimer however)

By the way Michael, have you seen any of Grady McMurty's video, currently being broadcast in clips by Howard Conder on RTV ? The production is very amateurish rather than professional (despite Conder's claims)

Even though he (Mcmurtry) has no qualifications in geology (I'm more qualified than he is in the subject) he makes some truly bizarre claims. He seems to focus on layers (YECs are obsessed with layers) around the Dead Sea as proof of the global flood. Another claim he makes is that there's a crack in the crust which runs the full circumference of the Earth and which originates at Philippi (the source of the flood waters ?). This is a new one on me.

I think it would be worth while for the BCSE to purchase a copy of this DVD and do a review.
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Postby Michael » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:05 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:
The NCSE is not an atheists' organisation


The fact that they have a spiritual director (Peter Hess ?) shows they aren't Roger and wisely, they take a neutral stance on spriritual matters (AiG would still regard them as a Secular Humanist organisation though).

No , it was on their forum


I must have a look and see who's posting over there then.

Premier would be somewhat less dogmatic than some religious broadcasters (e.g. Revelation TV) and the fact that they've had yourself as a guest on a number of occasions confirms this although, they have been pushing some of Paul Taylor nonsense on their website (they do add a disclaimer however)

By the way Michael, have you seen any of Grady McMurty's video, currently being broadcast in clips by Howard Conder on RTV ? The production is very amateurish rather than professional (despite Conder's claims)

Even though he (Mcmurtry) has no qualifications in geology (I'm more qualified than he is in the subject) he makes some truly bizarre claims. He seems to focus on layers (YECs are obsessed with layers) around the Dead Sea as proof of the global flood. Another claim he makes is that there's a crack in the crust which runs the full circumference of the Earth and which originates at Philippi (the source of the flood waters ?). This is a new one on me.

I think it would be worth while for the BCSE to purchase a copy of this DVD and do a review.


You will love Thorny and Ploughboy. I wont welcome you for obvious reasons:)
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Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:03 pm

You will love Thorny and Ploughboy. I wont welcome you for obvious reasons:)


I see what you mean Michael. i notice David Rosevear is also posting.
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:12 am

Peter Henderson wrote:
You will love Thorny and Ploughboy. I wont welcome you for obvious reasons:)


I see what you mean Michael. i notice David Rosevear is also posting.


Who is Dr. Derek P. Blake?
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Postby Michael » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:47 am

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Peter Henderson wrote:
You will love Thorny and Ploughboy. I wont welcome you for obvious reasons:)


I see what you mean Michael. i notice David Rosevear is also posting.


Who is Dr. Derek P. Blake?


Someone with some kinda hengineering doctorate.
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:36 pm

Michael wrote:
Someone with some kinda hengineering doctorate.


Oh No! (sigh). Not another wackjob creationist engineer.
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Postby Michael » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:41 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Michael wrote:
Someone with some kinda hengineering doctorate.


Oh No! (sigh). Not another wackjob creationist engineer.


Why dont you and Peter make some comments? Could be funny. One guy is recommending your favorite Anderson on Alexander!
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Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:33 pm

Why dont you and Peter make some comments? Could be funny. One guy is recommending your favorite Anderson on Alexander!


Well, I've now posted a comment Michael and linked to the Ken Miller and Ed Brayton talks on Dover. I've also liinked to Charles Price. Price is one of the few evangelical leaders not dogmatic on the subject. I'm not sure if Price is a YEC but he does allow for different views and seems to see the issue as unimportant to salvation.

I'm sure the Miller/Brayton lectures will go down like a lead balloon though. It'll be interesting to see if Rosevear comments.
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Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:42 am

Why dont you and Peter make some comments? Could be funny. One guy is recommending your favorite Anderson on Alexander!
Michael


Looks like I'm banging my head against a brick wall over there Michael.

I've been accused of circular reasoning by a guy called Andrew who still thinks ID has a future. He seems to have ignored all the evidence presented by Prof. Miller at Dover. Sigh ! :cry:
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